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Petitions and activism

Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools

1000 replies

Busydadof2 · 18/02/2024 08:34

The Labour Party has proposed introduction of VAT on private schools.

In the scheme of things the money they will bring in from this is tiny compared with total expenditure on state schools, while it will drive more burden on the state system as some parents leave private schools. I think this is a populist ploy to get traditional Labour voters to vote for what is in any other sense a centrist party.

Have you considered signing this petition to make sure the policy gets scrutinised and the weight of public sentiment against it is known?

Change.org petition: Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools

www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools

Various perspectives from the signatories of this vote come to mind and resonate with our own situation, including this: “I work in a state school with over 30 in a class and oversubscribed. My 2 kids went or go to private schools and we have sacrificed loads to do this. We are NOT wealthy, many of the kids at the school I work at live in bigger houses and have much more disposable income than we do. We chose to send our kids to private school rather than live in a bigger house instead of our semi detached on a main road. We holiday in the UK every year and I work full time. I buy my clothes on the high street or in charity shops. Many parents at the school my kids attend are in exactly the same situation. I agree there are some very wealthy parents there too and the addition of VAT will not even make an impact on them, they will pay it without batting an eyelid. All this will do is push the kids like ours back into an already oversubscribed state system, increase class sizes even more and create a bigger divide as private education will become truly elitist.”

Sign the Petition

Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:12

"we’re selling future influence."

Posted without any sense of irony.

Naptrappedmummy · 19/02/2024 16:15

Trufflump · 19/02/2024 15:06

how dare we ask the wealthy foreigners for tax. They should do all trade in U.K. tax free!

also, you really think someone who’s willing to spend £15k to send their kids to U.K. private school is going to go elsewhere because now it’s £18k? Give over.

How much time have you spent with this kind of person? Like I said I went to grammar surrounded by girls from very wealthy families, who had a 20k-a-year place lined up if they didn’t pass their 11+. The rich still like to save a few bob (they wouldn’t be rich if they didn’t!) and most of them have a few kids. So it wouldn’t be an extra 3k a year, it’d be an extra 9k (and that’s if the school was as cheap as you say - most round here are about 20k a year for secondary, 15k is for prep.)

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/02/2024 16:17

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:12

"we’re selling future influence."

Posted without any sense of irony.

What is it you disagree with?

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/02/2024 16:23

It’s soft diplomacy.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:23

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

Oh I don't disagree at all. It's an accurate representation of why people really go private. It's just a bizarre and embarrassing thing to admit, given that this whole thread has been about parents working 120 hour weeks on minimum wage to send their simultaneously talented/academically gifted/SEND children who deserve the advantages of private schools but couldn't possibly cope in the local comp.

EasternStandard · 19/02/2024 16:23

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/02/2024 16:23

It’s soft diplomacy.

It’s a really bad idea to decrease something we’re good at

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:25

@EasternStandard

If we were good at it, demand would be inelastic and we would be stupid not to tax it.

EasternStandard · 19/02/2024 16:31

Hit any sector with a 20% charge and they’d feel it

It’s only looked over for education because people get kicks taking stuff away from other dc

Although it’ll likely bite them on the butt in some way as parents with money can buy outcomes in other ways

20% will decrease any sector though

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:36

@EasternStandard

I could think of lots of other sectors which would be more deserving of a 20% tax cut, and which would have more social benefit. Good to see you're accepting private schools are businesses though.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:37

EasternStandard · 19/02/2024 16:31

Hit any sector with a 20% charge and they’d feel it

It’s only looked over for education because people get kicks taking stuff away from other dc

Although it’ll likely bite them on the butt in some way as parents with money can buy outcomes in other ways

20% will decrease any sector though

The hypocrisy! You're on another thread literally saying it's wrong to invent motives for why people vote.

EasternStandard · 19/02/2024 16:39

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:37

The hypocrisy! You're on another thread literally saying it's wrong to invent motives for why people vote.

You would override anyone who said why they’re voting for a party

Even when they say why

That’s just arrogance

As for the other post. Good to see what? They have charitable status, that’s not changing it was dropped

ItsAllAboutTheDosh · 19/02/2024 16:41

This affects a tiny percentage of voters, most of whom would never have voted for labour anyway.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/02/2024 16:47

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:23

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

Oh I don't disagree at all. It's an accurate representation of why people really go private. It's just a bizarre and embarrassing thing to admit, given that this whole thread has been about parents working 120 hour weeks on minimum wage to send their simultaneously talented/academically gifted/SEND children who deserve the advantages of private schools but couldn't possibly cope in the local comp.

I think you misunderstood me.

My point was, that as country, we benefit from a British influence over pupils who have studied here and then carry that later in life.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:50

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

Ok, I still don't see that as necessarily a positive thing though. The super rich, influencing and being influenced by the super rich of other countries.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/02/2024 16:52

ItsAllAboutTheDosh · 19/02/2024 16:41

This affects a tiny percentage of voters, most of whom would never have voted for labour anyway.

If it only affects a tiny percentage of voters why is it a flagship policy then?

Because it's a victory of ideology over common sense.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/02/2024 16:54

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 16:50

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat

Ok, I still don't see that as necessarily a positive thing though. The super rich, influencing and being influenced by the super rich of other countries.

Well, maybe you don't.

ItsAllAboutTheDosh · 19/02/2024 17:04

Because it is the right thing to do.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 17:08

ItsAllAboutTheDosh · 19/02/2024 17:04

Because it is the right thing to do.

You've encapsulated the argument perfectly. Unfortunately the concept of enacting a policy because of its inherent morality and value to society is literally incomprehensible to the modern brand of self-serving Tories.

newmummycwharf1 · 19/02/2024 17:24

Thank you so much for the links. Had to share excerpts from the chapter on reconciling choice and equity. It is interesting that you think I am speaking in a vacuum and have no idea pedagogy.

The point I have been trying to make for the last couple days is really well made in the OECD white paper you kindly linked - choice is a great force for good, equity is fundamental. Lack of imagination is the limitation.

Pages 168 for ease of reference but copied below.

*In quote: Reconciling choice and equity Many countries are struggling to reconcile their aspirations for greater flexibility and more opportunities for parents to choose their child’s school with the need to ensure quality, equity and coherence in their school systems. While enhanced school autonomy seems a common characteristic of highperforming education systems, these education systems differ substantially in how they regulate autonomy. They often pursue very different approaches when it comes to linking school autonomy to school choice, and to reconciling choice with equity. For example, England and Shanghai both emphasise market mechanisms, but while public policy in England mainly operates on the demand side of markets, seeking to improve schooling by enhancing parents’ choice, in Shanghai, the main emphasis of public policy lies in creating a level playing field at the supply side: providing schools in the most disadvantaged areas with the best educational resources. While Finland and Hong Kong both emphasise local autonomy, in Finland that autonomy is exercised within a strong public school system, while most schools in Hong Kong are managed by independent school governing boards with relatively loose steering mechanisms. Some countries have strengthened choice and equity-related mechanisms at the same time. England, for example, has rapidly increased the number of academies, schools funded directly by the Department for Education and independent of local authority control. At the same time, England has established a pupil premium (see above) that provides schools with additional resources based on the socio-economic composition of their student body. Some countries have also made it possible for private schools to be integrated into the public education system as government dependent schools or as independent schools that receive a certain amount of public funding.

Proponents of school choice defend the right of parents to send their child to the school of their preference – because of quality, pedagogical approaches, religious denomination, affordability or geographic location – regardless of legal restrictions or financial or geographic barriers. The idea is that, given students’ diverse needs and interests, a larger number of options in any one school system should lead to better value by reducing the cost of failure and mismatch. More options should stimulate competition and, in doing so, prompt schools to innovate, experiment with new pedagogies, become more efficient and improve the quality of the learning experience. Proponents argue that the increasing social and cultural diversity of modern societies calls for greater diversification in the education landscape, including allowing non-traditional providers and even commercial companies to enter the market. Critics of school choice argue that, when presented with more options, students from advantaged backgrounds often choose to leave the public system, leading to greater social and cultural segregation in the school system. They are also concerned with over-reliance on theoretical models of rational, price-based economic competition as the basis for the allocation of resources. At the macro level, such segregation can deprive children of opportunities to learn, play and communicate with children from different social, cultural and ethnic backgrounds; that, in turn, threatens social cohesion. To critics, vouchers and voucher-like systems divert public resources to private and sometimes commercial providers, thereby depriving public schools, which tend to serve large populations of disadvantaged students, of the resources they need to maintain the quality of the education they provide. A closer look at the evidence shows that the arguments are not so clear-cut. Consider Hong Kong. This is a system that has a market-driven approach in virtually every field of public service, but it has been able to combine high student performance with a high degree of social equity in the distribution of education opportunities.*

My last word: Think out of the box or it is the kids that suffer.

When someone has studied a topic in such depth and remains rigid - internet arguments will not enable them to open themselves to another perspective. So I'm out. The people get the leader they deserve. Enjoy!!

Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools
Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools
Marchesman · 19/02/2024 17:25

@Hobbi Define 'quite closely' because the notion that grammar schools 'do nothing for the educational standards of a country other than reinforce epidemiological inequalities' is pure invention. Furthermore, without reading all of your links I very much doubt that there is anything there that indicates that making independent schools less accessible will improve social mobility.

The fact is that since grammar schools were more or less abolished (and the private sector essentially stayed the same), educational mobility has deteriorated markedly. When there were grammar schools, children from the bottom socioeconomic quintile were three times less likely than children in the top SE quintile to progress to selective universities, in the comprehensive era they are nine times less likely.

There is of course no way to prove a causal relationship, but it is perfectly intuitive that replacing academic selection with social selection (by house price) would have this effect. The most socially selective state schools are comprehensive not grammar; and children from the top quintile of comprehensive schools are about 25 times more likely to go to top universities than children from the bottom quintile of comprehensive schools. There are a lot more children in these socially selective high-performing comprehensive schools than there are in independent schools, and most children (65%) in independent schools are not from the top socioeconomic quintile.

I would feel sorry for the average family at an independent school but I confess to looking forward to Labour enacting their policy as a spectator sport, because as others have indicated, it will create an absolute shit-storm as the best state schools (which on average perform just as well as independent schools) are swamped.

It is already happening where I previously lived, where the cost of very ordinary 4 bed houses close to the (only) highly socially-selective comprehensive school in the town has risen from £700k to £1.5m.

As for people optimistically thinking there will not be an exodus, think again. No state sixth form is going to turn away pupils with strings of A* behind them - ie the average bursary pupil. Furthermore, another £200k on the cost of educating two children privately (boarding from late prep school) would make most people think twice, given the unfair discrimination that their children can look forward to.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 17:59

I see you neither read my links nor my post. Fiddling around with schools does nothing for social mobility, even if that were a moral objective - i actually find the term problematic - I want to see social equity, not reinforcement of hierarchy and the idea that one class is better than another. Selective schools do not benefit society and never did - your representation of the previous experiment with the tripartite system is incorrect. Many studies have shown this. My view on private schools is that they should be taxed like any other business, that's all. I don't pretend that will do anything for society at all, but if I pay 20% VAT in toilet roll, I should probably pay it on a luxury like private education. If you ask education leaders in Nordic countries whether they think their excellent schools help with the much better social equality there, they'll be very confused. They know that their superior state education is a product of equality, not a cause thereof. A simple category error on our behalf.

Marchesman · 19/02/2024 18:45

No, you don't see that I did not read your links. I read your links until I came to the conclusion that I would not find anything that justified a taxation on education. If I was wrong feel free to point it out to me.

My 'representation of the previous experiment with the tripartite system', as you pejoratively put it, is unequivocally correct. See Blanden and Macmillan Education and Intergenerational Mobility: Help or Hindrance? 2014 for the historic data and Sutton Trust for the more recent. The 'many studies' ploy does not wash.

If you don't think the 20% will benefit society then why all the guff about social mobility; and since the only moral dimension to taxation is its benefit to society, the justification that 'it is the right thing to do' pretty much boils down to your personal 'view' - which is fine of course, so long as that is clear.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 19:52

Marchesman · 19/02/2024 18:45

No, you don't see that I did not read your links. I read your links until I came to the conclusion that I would not find anything that justified a taxation on education. If I was wrong feel free to point it out to me.

My 'representation of the previous experiment with the tripartite system', as you pejoratively put it, is unequivocally correct. See Blanden and Macmillan Education and Intergenerational Mobility: Help or Hindrance? 2014 for the historic data and Sutton Trust for the more recent. The 'many studies' ploy does not wash.

If you don't think the 20% will benefit society then why all the guff about social mobility; and since the only moral dimension to taxation is its benefit to society, the justification that 'it is the right thing to do' pretty much boils down to your personal 'view' - which is fine of course, so long as that is clear.

Grammar schools in England: a new analysis of social segregation and academic outcomes
Gorard, S.A.C.; Siddiqui, N.

comprehensivefuture.org.uk/grammar-school-myths-grammar-schools-are-engines-of-social-mobility-just-look-at-the-past/

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/43288/six-reasons-why-grammar-schools-dont-help-social-mobility

journals.lwbooks.co.uk/forum/vol-54-issue-3/article-5247/

You see, we can all find sources - some of them even use data and evidence.

As I said, which you ignore, I think social mobility is an unhelpful phrase, suggesting some jobs and lifestyles are inferior to others and actually perpetuating inequality. I don't think Labour should use the phrase as it betrays their historical remit.

Hobbi · 19/02/2024 19:53

@Marchesman

Oh, and I didn't include the latest Sutton Trust research, but it seems to say the opposite of what you're saying.

Marchesman · 19/02/2024 21:37

My sources are:
'Degree acquisition by parental income in the NCDS, BCS and BHPS' for children born in 1958 with a ratio of 3.4 (table 4 in the paper cited above) vs The Independent Commission on Fees 'ten-fold difference in the number of applicants from advantaged and disadvantaged background entering ST13 institutions.' (Analysis of trends in higher education applications, admissions, and enrolments, 2014).

Yours are:
Gorard who has produced (in my opinion) seriously methodologically flawed anti-grammar school research - and does not address historic educational mobility in the polemic that you cite.
An overtly anti-grammar school blog that makes no historic comparisons regarding progression to selective universities.
Macmillan who despite clearly having access to historic data does not use it.
A very strange paper that is almost entirely anecdotal.

So I agree, we can all find sources, but only one of us has provided data on educational mobility over time.

'Social' mobility is unhelpful, which is why, except in relation to your citations, I haven't used it.

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