Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools

[Busydadof2]

The Labour Party has proposed introduction of VAT on private schools.

In the scheme of things the money they will bring in from this is tiny compared with total expenditure on state schools, while it will drive more burden on the state system as some parents leave private schools. I think this is a populist ploy to get traditional Labour voters to vote for what is in any other sense a centrist party.

Have you considered signing this petition to make sure the policy gets scrutinised and the weight of public sentiment against it is known?

Change.org petition: Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools

www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools

Various perspectives from the signatories of this vote come to mind and resonate with our own situation, including this: “I work in a state school with over 30 in a class and oversubscribed. My 2 kids went or go to private schools and we have sacrificed loads to do this. We are NOT wealthy, many of the kids at the school I work at live in bigger houses and have much more disposable income than we do. We chose to send our kids to private school rather than live in a bigger house instead of our semi detached on a main road. We holiday in the UK every year and I work full time. I buy my clothes on the high street or in charity shops. Many parents at the school my kids attend are in exactly the same situation. I agree there are some very wealthy parents there too and the addition of VAT will not even make an impact on them, they will pay it without batting an eyelid. All this will do is push the kids like ours back into an already oversubscribed state system, increase class sizes even more and create a bigger divide as private education will become truly elitist.”

I just don’t believe that even if private schools were made illegal and their pupils absorbed into the state system, it would make the blindest bit of difference to the current state students. In fact it would make the state system more divisive, all it would mean is house prices near the grammars or top comprehensives absolutely rocketing beyond what even the middle classes could afford. Teachers would be offered generous salaries to homeschool and leave the state sector. Certain state schools would be private in all but name with generous donations and heavy parent involvement.

Meanwhile there would be even less cash to go round as we would now be spending public money on the ex private students as well. Our schools will continue to be underfunded because we have no money, and that’s unlikely to change any time soon.

I wish people would wake up and smell the coffee because there are a huge number of people labouring under entirely false ideas. If we all pulled in the same (realistic) direction we could absolutely turn things around here in about 10-15 years, but it won’t happen.

I can see why Labour (who want to come in and change things by the way!) dont need to have a credible plan. Their plan can just be 'these guys are terrible!'

Labour has opposition advantage - they can sell us a dream. They are not even doing that! Imagine what will happen when they finally get in and have nothing to prove

Just to say-grammar schools are not the panacea some people seem to think they are. They do not now (if they ever did) contribute to social mobility. Rather the opposite.

They would if they were means tested but they never have been.

The policy you support will exacerbate this.

More parents, with sharper elbows and funds to back it up will go for grammars.

@Naptrappedmummy "They would if they were means tested but they never have been."
Gosh- that's a new one on me! Not sure how that would work!

@EasternStandard "More parents, with sharper elbows and funds to back it up will go for grammars."

Don't worry- they are already fully populated by people like this!

How can a grammar school be means tested if it's part if state education?

Why is a decent education seen as a “luxury” by so many? A calm, productive atmosphere where children are well behaved and able to learn, where classes are a size where every child gets attention, and where each child’s talents are nurtured and encouraged should not be seen as a luxury. It should be available to all children. Why are people obsessed with attacking private schools rather than improving the state sector?

For those saying that the private system promotes inequality, there’s plenty of inequality in the state system. How is it “fair” that some parents are able to access good state schools but vast swathes of the country cannot? At primary level, our catchment school is dire. It’s in an affluent area, children going to the school at 4 are far above average on assessment levels. When they leave at 11 their SATS levels are far below average. At secondary level, we don’t live in catchment for academically selective schools. Our only half decent state secondary discriminates based on religion. Because we don’t go to church to enable a box to be ticked, we can’t access a place. How does that promote “equality”? If the state offered me a good education where my children could reach their potential, I’d happily take it. I was state educated myself.

This proposed policy will do nothing to improve the state system. It will raise a relatively tiny amount of money. Problems in the state system run far deeper than funding anyway. You only have to read the comments which many have made about proposals to ban mobile phones in schools, with many saying it’s unworkable. Why is it unworkable? Too many people aren’t interested in trying to improve the state system. They just want to drag the private sector down to the same level so it’s “fair”.

It’s an absolute disgrace that far too many children are being failed by the state education system. It’s appalling that many children can only access a good education if their parents can afford to pay for it. When are people going to start using their efforts to improve the state system rather than focussing on the 6% at private school? Trying to attack the 6% is going to make no difference to the other 94%.

Maybe a few MC on here wanting Labour’s policy will miss out when private switch more

Competition will increase someone’s dc will be at the modern secondary when they otherwise would have been in the grammar

Plus if you can see the problem already it’s odd to want to increase it

Do you think that is because you have to be relatively wealthy to access them? And if there were more - they could serve the country better.

Do you think if we had a growing economy and higher wage economy, grammar schools could work?

From what I see (and I dont have the data to back this up), it does not seem the majority of the population in England are academically aspirational. In my daily life, I have met so many people who believe education beyond GCSEs is optional for instance, bright kids will do well without any extra input, what will be will be. Those values are at odds with mine.

Selective education (grammar, some independent schools) enables children who suit that environment to really stretch themselves academically, be with a like-minded cohort and that is where innovation for society comes from. I am sure it is not for everyone however. So I dont think sending every child mandatorily to their nearest school and hoping for the best is the way forward. There should be provision that addresses different values around education - with a base level for all

In any case, then you get selection by house prices

What has charitable status got to do with it? This thread is about VAT on fees. It’s worth noting anyway that about half of private schools don’t have charitable status.

" At primary level, our catchment school is dire. It’s in an affluent area, children going to the school at 4 are far above average on assessment levels. When they leave at 11 their SATS levels are far below average."

Interesting. Has being in special measures done anything to help?

The banning of phones is another value clash for me. My kids have no smart phones and no access to them and they are late primary/early secondary school. They have very restricted screen time (none during the school week) as research is very clear on what social media and screens do to young minds. Their cohort is similar because the parents feel the way we do. But my neighbour 2 doors down may not. We should all be empowered to choose where and with whom our kids spend over 30% of their childhood. So policies that promote choice and options have my buy-in

Secondary modern rather..

The gap between SM and grammar is greater than the gap between grammar and private

If you are cheerleading this policy and miss out on a place… well you’ve changed education setting for your dc for little reason, and no benefit to anyone

Most of England does not have a grammar school system.

I suspect you’re right, at least as things stand. But an anti-private school poster was pointing to NI schools as a showcase of good state provision. It seems that NI has a lot of grammars. Although apparently they’re not really grammars.

One can’t have it both ways.

The difficulty with all these private v state threads is that the private supporters never acknowledge financial privilege. And the state supporters never acknowledge either that a lot of state provision is hobbled by low expectations and disruptive pupils or that many of the better schools are colonised by the middle classes.

I’ve seen posters actually deny that parents buy into catchment areas and say that tutoring is only bought by parents already in the private system.

It’s all a bit false and pointless really as a debate.

FWIW, I’ve never gone private and I don’t think I would have done even if I had had the money.

It’s not in special measures. The last full ofsted inspection was many years ago and said it was “good”. I’ve looked at the performance data though (I’d share the link but it’d be identifying). In year 1, 85% pass the phonics check for example. By year 6, only around 40% achieve the expected levels in maths and English. Perhaps that’s enough for ofsted to declare it “good”. Children and teachers are leaving in droves.

Grammar is short in supply and high in demand

Parents with the funds will go for it, some who would have got a place previously won’t

Those dc will do well and access top universities. Not much changes in terms of outcomes

Well except for the dc who might have had that opportunity. And bursary dc, in the end it the system gets rearranged so top occupy places and the bottom dc go down a level

That can change. TM suggested this. It veers off the VAT on fees discussion but with regards to how to sort the state education problem to deliver for the nation (which is the more important discussion to be having), other solutions have to be brought forward.

But many were against expanding Grammars.

From this thread - it is clear most know VAT on fees wont change anything for state schools but support it in principle as a levelling down agenda and have not had a single thought on what they want to hear from Labour that would improve education. Which is perfectly fair enough.

I look forward to discussing the potential solutions in 3 years time - after VAT has been implemented and nothing has changed

We should all be empowered to choose where and with whom our kids spend over 30% of their childhood

I agree. What happens if there is no local state school which aligns with the parents’ values though? There are no local state schools near us which ban mobile phones. The only ones which do are private.

Yup - that is why I support private options and choice. In education/healthcare etc. It is a sign of a functioning society. There should be a base level we all agree on as a society (moral values, literacy levels etc). But there are other areas that seem optional or 'luxury' to some. For the latter - you have to pay

"We should all be empowered to choose where and with whom our kids spend over 30% of their childhood"

Fine. Just do not expect a tax break for that choice.

It would be so much easier to discuss this if private school supporters would stop talking about envy and jealousy and levelling down and accept that it's possible to be opposed to private education for legitimate philosophical and political reasons. And that there are many people who could afford private education and can see the good side of it but actively choose not to use it.

Agreed. And I applaud those who pay for that choice in house prices and build generational wealth whilst doing so too. All is fair.

For those that these things dont matter enough to ask the right questions/make different choices - they can enjoy the widely available alternative in whatever state it is. As they say, 'bright kids will do fine anywhere'👏👏