Overly strict uniform policies in secondary schools - does anyone want MNHQ to run a campaign about this?

[TooStressyForMyOwnGood]

So many secondary schools now seem to have super strict uniform policies. I feel this results in:

Low pupil morale
Parents having to spend a fortune on the latest uniform
Almost impossible to find a black school shoe that is appropriate and yet actually fit for purpose
Exclusions, isolations and detentions for flimsy reasons

And my personal favourites:-

Blazers have to be worn all summer even if children faint
Measuring school skirt length
Pupils not allowed non-school shoes even with a hospital note

I’ve asked MNHQ if they want to run a campaign and they suggested I post here, so here goes.

Personally I am in favour of uniform but would like a common sense approach, which many, many schools achieve with few problems.

Fully expecting posts from people in favour of the rules too.

I think people imagine all secondary schools have halls full of adequate lockers for all pupils. They don't.

Someone thinks that overstrict uniform rules can be dealt with by judicial review??!!!

On the continent almost all schools have no uniform. Works well for them. Would work well here too. Let's concentrate on actual educational issues.

It does give a right wing vibe to the UK. Similar to schools in Taiwan, where they even have rules on hair length.

Meanwhile, schools are telling us they are short of qualified teachers. Teachers say morale is at a low ebb. Curriculum changes have outpaced schools' abilities to deliver them well.

But HTs and Governing Bodies think that zero tolerance over too-strict uniform policies and locking children's toilets for most of the day will save British education.

The Citizens' Advice Bureau some years ago produced a report on 'The Cost of a Free Education' and foresaw that the drive towards ever stricter uniform rules would increase inequalities and breach government guidelines. They were right.

Yes please!!! SOOO fed up of the uniform police. Ties are a particular bugbear of mine - they make NO Sense. Particularly on girls. Ditto wearing a Blazer all year round. Dc's school eventually relented during the very hot weather last year, but only to the level of some (not all) teachers allowing them to be hung on backs of chairs during lessons. They still had to be worn during breaks, lunch and while moving from one lesson to another.
And shoes!! why on earth can't they wear trainers? They're much better for their feet and backs.
I could go on and on with this it's so ridiculous, but just a few other things that must completely waste teachers time and cause stress for the kids :
have to have shirts tucked in all the time
The price! I could kit my kids out in Selfridges for less.
skirt length
socks - height, colour etc
Hair - style, length, colour
nails, makeup, fake tan and eyebrows (well, I don't actually have a problem with this one... but still)
no logo'd trainers for pe - wtf! they are not enforcing this one because ITS IMPOSSIBLE!

Also, they are turning our children into uniformed robots. stamping on their creativity and personal expression.

sorry for the rant . I would be so pleased @MNHQ if you took this up.

My kids school doesn't have lockers and is 'campus style' so they frequently have to go outside between lessons.

My DS's secondary school became unhinged in what was fortunately his last year there.

Coats: black only. No logos or coloured zips, buttons, piping. 'Colours' included navy blue and grey. Coats to be taken off prior to entry to the school building to be held up for inspection even when it was pouring down. No lockers, no cloakrooms.

This rule arrived with the new academy Head.

The price: I so want DD to get into her 2nd choice because there's less logoed uniform and what there is is cheaper. Her 1st choice's PE kit's ridiculous! Long stripy socks, only available from their supplier?

@mysparklingpersonality so launch an appeal and of that doesn’t work then launch a judicial review. I’m surprised that you haven’t already. That’s how it works. And it does work. If the school is genuinely being wholly unreasonable and refusing to budge the courts will deal with it.

@felixtitlong aggressive with ties on girls-bizarre and pointless.

Rules are rules. You all know what the uniform rules are. There’s really no excuse for not complying. That might take the minimal forethought and effort to get the uniform items.

If the Head lets uniform rules be slack the rich kids will instantly find ways to show they are rich and run the poor kids noses in it. Uniform is a great leveller and stops all kinds of cruel and snobbish behaviour.

Your kid is not special. You know the rules. You know you can comply.

Can you really imagine what would happen if schools allowed a free for all on make up, hair styles, shoes etc?

I agree that your appearance has no bearing on your ability but honestly would you be happy if your heart surgeon walked into your consultation looking like an extra from TOWIE going for a night out in the Sugar Hut?

Or the judge in your court case rocked up looking like coco the clown?

Appearances do matter and it all contributes to attitudes to learning. Of course the schools shouldn't be over reacting to a tiny uniform infraction and a bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss but I've seen how cocky and mouthy some of these students can be. They have an answer for everything and every excuse as to why the rules don't apply to them.

I think wearing correct uniform is a way of teaching children that sometimes we don't agree with a rule, or they might seem a bit pointless, but we have to follow them anyway.

Maybe there is an argument for rethinking uniforms to make them a bit more practical but I don't think it harms children to have to be smart, neat and tidy.

fruitpastille DD's in yr6 and their teacher tried to prepare them for yr7 at the beginning of the year. If they picked up their pen they were told off. It was a shock to the system for DD, she was in tears one night, as she's a goody two shoes and never in trouble. I don't know how she'll cope next year.

Philomena, your poor DD and others . I find the whole pen thing strange too. In my real world of work, I can pick up my pen when I want. Sometimes I remember a pen, sometimes I don’t. I borrow one off a friend if I forget one and certainly don’t get disciplined for it.

weetabix, I’m a HCP. Lots of the doctors and other staff wear very heavy make up and some of the younger staff wouldn’t look out of place in a nightclub. Doesn’t bother me. What I want to know about a heart surgeon is do they have technical ability and can they work in a team. I don’t care what they look like.

All I’m suggesting is what is in your last paragraph... rethinking uniforms for a more practical approach. Being smart, clean and tidy is fine.

I’ve looked at the government’s petition page which is depressing reading in itself. There are a couple of petitions about uniforms and punishments

They were rejected as the UK government and Parliament are not responsible for discl in schools. A position I find ridiculous. So taking it up with individual heads and academies is suggested...
who can just do as they like anyway . Individuals could also take it to the governors but it seems if you want a general change rather than just individual schools then that is not possible. Which is exactly why I hoped @MNHQ would take it up.

There are a couple of more general uniform petitions which we could sign.

I really regret not name changing before I started this thread as I then could have started up a petition and linked it. Tbh I have no faith a petition would change things anyway. All I know is when my kids start secondary I will do everything in my power to ensure they do not walk miles in the snow in shoes and faint in summer in blazers. Both of them are health and safety issues I believe and are separate to a general ‘smart uniform’ debate.

Sorry meant to link the petitions, left a gap and forgot to go back! Here.

@Racecardriver

I've no idea how to even start a judicial review if I'm honest, and it shouldn't need to come down to that should it?!
I did appeal, of sorts I suppose, I spoke with head of year and outlined my issues with the footwear policy. I was told (after an 'enquiry' by which time the snow and therefore the problem had gone) that it would be reviewed again 'when the bad weather came' but that the uniform policy must be adhered to. So clear as mud then, let's just wait and see.

@UnrelentingFruitScoffer
Uniform is a great leveller and stops all kinds of cruel and snobbish behaviour.

Until school starts putting children in isolation because a new item cannot be purchased overnight due to lack of funds. Then it kind of highlights that fact doesn't it and makes that argument invalid. I'm all for uniform for the reasons you state, what I'm not for is humiliating children by punishing them and making it even more obvious that they are from a low income family, because something broke and cannot be instantly replaced.

Oh Philomena that sounds horrible, your poor DD.

I also agree it's only a good leveller if it's a reasonably priced uniform that doesn't make anyone uncomfortable if oddly shaped.

The academies are obviously going for a pricey option to try and filter out the lower income families they perceive as more likely to be disruptive. Pretty much the opposite of a leveller.

Thanks TooStressy the teacher's eased off now, but if that's the attitude in secondary school, it reminds me of me when I had DS1. I'm autistic, and I had the idea that DC shouldn't move without permission, that they were kind of like dolls. DC moving on their own doesn't unsettle me anymore! 😂

Thanks Snuggy

if your heart surgeon walked into your consultation looking like an extra from TOWIE going for a night out in the Sugar Hut?

Or the judge in your court case rocked up looking like coco the clown?

I want my surgeon to be good at operating. I want the judge in my case to be a good judge. I am not stupid enough to think that the way in which they choose to paint their face affects their ability to practise medicine or law . If other people are, that's their problem which they really need to work out themselves, not impose their strange beliefs on everyone else.

I would support a campaign

I certainly wouldn't give a shit whether my lawyer had bought his clothes from Tesco or an official supplier

TooStressyForMyOwnGood

The difficulty that you have is that the government have no power to direct academies to do anything with regards to uniform (or much else really!) Academies and MATs are like individual companies - they can make their own rules, set their own uniform.

One big problem is that of competition. All schools want to attract students because students mean money. Schools are therefore very aware of their image within the community - a school with a bad reputation is likely to attract less pupils meaning less money - so it will be a brave school that bucks uniform trends.

I guess a way forward, if you want to change it in one school, is to see if their is a Parent Voice committee or speak to the HT to see if small changes could be made.

Obviously the more parents on board the better . I would urge you to do this collaboratively with the school though rather than rabble rousing just to avoid them sticking their heels in.

I think concentrate on common sense changes and see what their reaction is. A lot rests on the attitude of the HT though.