Overly strict uniform policies in secondary schools - does anyone want MNHQ to run a campaign about this?

[TooStressyForMyOwnGood]

So many secondary schools now seem to have super strict uniform policies. I feel this results in:

Low pupil morale
Parents having to spend a fortune on the latest uniform
Almost impossible to find a black school shoe that is appropriate and yet actually fit for purpose
Exclusions, isolations and detentions for flimsy reasons

And my personal favourites:-

Blazers have to be worn all summer even if children faint
Measuring school skirt length
Pupils not allowed non-school shoes even with a hospital note

I’ve asked MNHQ if they want to run a campaign and they suggested I post here, so here goes.

Personally I am in favour of uniform but would like a common sense approach, which many, many schools achieve with few problems.

Fully expecting posts from people in favour of the rules too.

[BonnesVacances]

children will try to rebel against the rules. It is much safer and more conducive to learning for the boundary to be set at school uniform than to have a more relaxed atmosphere and have children rebelling in more extreme ways.

I came on to say exactly this. Rebelling is part of the developmental process of being a teenager. Much much safer for them to do it over uniform than upping the ante.

[CuckooCuckooClock]

Schools know which families are genuinely struggling financially and which are using it as an excuse to break uniform rules.
Little Jonny would have lots of empathy and support at my school but then when little Mikey's mum hears that Jonny is allowed to wear non uniform shoes, she sends Mikey in in his new Nike air Max (or whatever- I'm too old to know) and Mikey learns the valuable lesson that if you want to break the rules mummy will back you up and the nasty teachers are just picking on you.

[Weetabixandshreddies]

CuckooCuckooClock

Has it in a nut shell.

[Mistigri]

a front pocket detail will get you a detention,has to have real pockets

This might be the most insane thing I have ever read on Mumsnet school uniform threads (which are generally a parade of absolute batshittery).

How do they tell if it's a detail? Do teachers put hands into children's front trouser pockets to check?

[MaisyPops]

children will try to rebel against the rules. It is much safer and more conducive to learning for the boundary to be set at school uniform than to have a more relaxed atmosphere and have children rebelling in more extreme ways.
It's not like someone will say 'how did you get into gang crime?' And the reply will be 'well I wanted to wear trainers and the uniform said no trainers. Mum followed the uniform so I thought fuck it. I want to rebel so got myself a knife.'

Students will push the rules. Always have. Always will.

The issue is that increasingly there are parents who actively enable them either because they have a school chip on their shoulder, are more concerned with fashion than their child getting on with school, haven't the backbone to tell their child they will be wearing proper uniform.

Ridiculous uniform policies didn't come in because kids untuck their shirts, roll their skirts and sometimes wear heavier make up. Students have been doing those since the dawn of time (and still do at my sensibly uniformed school).
The issue is that when you have a critical mass of parents who actively seek to kit their child out in not school uniform and endlessly push things that schools eventually say enough's enough and then make a picky uniform policy with no ifs or buts.

I don't like those policies, but that's often how they happen.

[youarenotkiddingme]

But the point is my example of Jonny once would have created an empathetic response and approach.

Yet the realism is we are now hearing repeated stories or children who are wearing medical shoes with consultant notes or space boots for damaged limbs being placed in isolation as they are not school shoes.

This is the point it's gone to far. I get they are very isolated stories but all pupils in those schools will be suffering the same draconian approach. As if breaking your leg or having a disability isn't hard enough?

For someone who asked about schools with isolation for uniform infraction. There are at least 5 i know of immediately. Just google local schools and most have this rule.

The difference is not the rules but the way rules are being applied without context or understanding of everyday trials and tribulations.

[CuckooCuckooClock]

Absolutely agree with maisypops
I don't like strict uniforms and i hate having to police them but we are trying to take control of unruly teenagers so they at least have the opportunity to grow into decent adults with qualifications, who are able to get jobs and keep them.

[Weetabixandshreddies]

Can you link to anywhere that shows that a child with a disability has been put into inclusion for wearing medically sanctioned shoes?

I have been involved in schools for 20 years as a governor and never has this happened.

If parents communicate with the school and their child follows the rules generally then no school will punish for this.

I think what you will find is a child in trouble repeatedly for wearing nike trainers and mum claiming that he has a foot problem that is not diagnosed and only occurs during school time.

[CuckooCuckooClock]

Which schools youarenotkiddingme?
None of my local schools would put you straight into isolation for a single first uniform infringement.

[youarenotkiddingme]

Totally agree with you Maisie about some parents not parenting and expecting their child to follow rules.

A friend of mine complained her DD got into detention for her skirt not being regulation length. Skirt came in 3 lengths and she bought her the shorter one because "she refused" (the child that is) to let her buy the right length one Sje then complained the school expected her to purchase the correct one as "she'd already paid out".

In that case I 100% supported school and pissed my friend off by pointing out unless her dd held her and cashier at gunpoint it was verbal teenage whinging - nothing more and nothing less.

That's a different case to having a child who has worn regulation length for years 7-9. Halfway through yr 9 they have a growth spurt. School will know they've grown quickly. Parents can't afford to replace until payday (as regulation skirt is £30 a pop).
Child is placed in isolation.

This is where I say zero tolerance fails those from families with limited funds. One is deliberate and the other is wilful. I don't agree both deserve same treatment and I know most schools wouldn't take that stance.

However there are a number and an increasing amount who do. And I think as a democratic society we need to challenge this.

[CuckooCuckooClock]

If there are schools who would put someone I isolation for that then they are few and far between and your campaign needs to directed at the individual school's governing body. Please don't make our job harder by giving support to those parents who will look for any reason to challenge teachers.

[Thomasinaa]

Our school is extremely relaxed about uniform. Which I'm very happy about. The ridiculous focus on strict uniform by some schools and parents has a nasty right wing vibe to it. I'd favour no uniform, as on the continent.

[youarenotkiddingme]

Weetabix the example is from another thread which started this campaign.
My son use to wear Piedro boots. I had to provide his academy with medical letters from physio and consultant stating exactly why he needed them and what damage would occur if he didn't wear them to school as school uniform was no boots.

I love my ds consultant as he emailed HT and wrote that he was a busy man and would happily respond explaining medically everything they wanted to know but that would take time and so he felt they should explain to him exactly how my ds would fail education by wearing them first. 😂😂

They ignored him. They ignored ds wearing the boots. They failed him in umpteen other ways until he attempted to hang himself as "he'd rather be dead than ever attend there again".

He now goes to a much higher achieving secondary, with a uniform and a policy that's applied fairly (ds is always in correct inform anyway!) but it's noway draconian. Pupils there are happy and achieving well. And they use backpacks and sensible shoes through choice. (Which I cant work out but it seems when given some freedom of choice they go for sensible whereas when given no choice they rebel?)

I wish I had the answers but one thing I do know is something needs to change. There needs to be uniform imo. But there needs to be a realism applied rather than this blanket statement of "preparing them for work". When most pupils are seeing what workwear is really like day in and day out in supermarkets, public transport and the teachers themselves.

[youarenotkiddingme]

Cuckoo my local schools. However if I linked here it would give away my precise location. I also know despite all saying isolation for uniform infringement only 1 applies it immediately - no questions asked and no explanations allowed. The others apply it for repeated defiance of choosing not to wear it.

[MaisyPops]

youarenotkiddingme
I completely agree with you.

It's why if there is a campaign to change uniform rules or to push for more sensible uniform, I'd love it to go hand in hand with supporting more sanctions and quicker escalation for those parents and students who are outright defiant. (E.g. schools have spare clean uniform, you get changed into it & go to lessons, refusal is defiance, isolation etc.)

[Weetabixandshreddies]

youarenotkiddingme

I haven't seen the thread but my feeling is that we aren't hearing the full story.

Wrt your son I am desperately sorry to hear about what happened. Again though I can't entirely see how the school is at fault? The consultant had the time to e mail the HT to say that he was busy and would write about the shoes if the school wrote to him first? But the consultant in the email, instead of inflaming the situation, couldn't have just told the school that medically your son needed to wear the shoes? Seems to me that the dr in that case just stirred things up unnecessarily for your son.

When most pupils are seeing what workwear is really like day in and day out in supermarkets, public transport and the teachers themselves.

Where I work now the youngsters are always in trouble for nit wearing the uniform properly - skinny trousers rather than uniform trousers, the wrong shoes - sometimes up to and beyond final warnings because they've never learnt to follow rules. They've been allowed to believe that the rules don't apply to them.

[SnuggyBuggy]

Paediatricians get a lot of crap from schools "Yes John does need regular follow ups, he isn't faking a serious genetic disorder to miss lessons, no it isn't always going to be possible to fit him in at 4.15 every single time" that I'm not surprised they get sarcastic sometimes.

[CuckooCuckooClock]

Well if your son was put in isolation for wearing orthotic shoes for a medical condition then that is clearly totally unreasonable but that is one ridiculous school not a national problem.
You keep saying all your local schools are like this, but none of mine are so I just don't believe that there are that many schools with these policies.

[InProgress]

I would support a petition that dictates the purchase of the shirt/trousers from one supplier as it seems utterly ridiculous to pay a fortune when cheaper options are available from other suppliers.

I also have a lot of sympathy for those who gave children who medically need to wear trainers and are not allowed. However that is a local issue to specific schools not a national one.

Anything else I would not support. If there is no uniform that the difference between the families that can afford the latest designer gear and those who cannot will be even more pronounced. My DS has ASD has enough differences that are a potential target for bullies I do not want his school clothes to be another.

My DSs school gives guidance on trousers/shoes eg which supermarket types to get and also states no jeans /leggings or trainers. They had noticed more and more kids, particularly girls, where wearing leggings/jeans. So they sent a letter out to say in the new term they'd be a crack down.

A small handful of parents (3-4) of girls were outraged. Wrote to their MP (who met with the school & was 'meh'). Tried to incite a protest of parents outside school (didn't work), obligatory sad face in papers etc. The most appalling was that these people started falsely saying children were suspended (they were not) and calling the teachers paedophiles. Absolutely disgraceful.

So I would not support a ban on uniform. It's a good equaliser and easy identification.

[TooStressyForMyOwnGood]

youarenotkiddingme, awesome consultant .

The health service (much like schools) is on its knees. Expecting HCPs to write multiple letters and, worse, expecting GP notes for things like D&V is at best wasting NHS time and at worst compromising patient care by taking infectious children into a GP
surgery unnecessarily. We already have a nationwide critical shortage of GPS and stuff like this doesn’t help. Not strictly related to uniforms I realise but while I am on my soapbox...

[TooStressyForMyOwnGood]

Xpost, totally agree Snuggy.

InProgress, I agree with your post. If it says no leggings it means no leggings.

[Toomanycats99]

My daughters school has a single supplier policy but uniform is polo shirt sweatshirt and trousers / skirt. I think prices are fairly reasonable. (Although still higher than a supermarket I guess) there school shoe rules are also fairly relaxed - they allow leather vans for example which I know some don't. I must admit when she went there I felt I had missed seeing her in the whole smart blazer thing but I went to a meeting where the school explained it.

They wanted people to stick to the uniform so they made it as simple as possible. It does seem like this has done the job - I also think it will be easy in the summer as they can just wear the polo shirt.

[sashh]

There should be a maximum price for total uniform, ie a set for a student starting a new school, so a blazer, trousers, skirts, shirts, tie, PE kit, shoes.

The schools should be forced to sell a complete set at the government agreed price.

So say (for secondary)

5 shirts/blouses
3 pairs trousers/skirts /combination of both
1 PE kit including socks, swimming cossie
1 pair school shoes
1 pair PE trainers
Blazer
Coat
3 jumpers
1 tie
5 pairs of socks / tights / combination

for what? £150.00 maybe £200?

All clothes to be priced so that they can be bought individually but the total of individual items cannot cost more than the 'starter kit'.

£100 wool blazers and logoed everything would soon disappear.

[MrsChollySawcutt]

I just don't understand those advocating no uniform. If following uniform code is problematic for those on low incomes how on Earth are their children going to feel when they don't have the latest fashions and designer labels of their wealthier schoolmates? How is that fairer and better?

Only this week we have had reports of schools banning Canada Goose and Moncler coats which cost around £1000.

[MarysInTheDyson]

I remember a teacher saying that some very poor kids skip school on mufti day because they're embarrassed by their clothes.