Overly strict uniform policies in secondary schools - does anyone want MNHQ to run a campaign about this?

[TooStressyForMyOwnGood]

So many secondary schools now seem to have super strict uniform policies. I feel this results in:

Low pupil morale
Parents having to spend a fortune on the latest uniform
Almost impossible to find a black school shoe that is appropriate and yet actually fit for purpose
Exclusions, isolations and detentions for flimsy reasons

And my personal favourites:-

Blazers have to be worn all summer even if children faint
Measuring school skirt length
Pupils not allowed non-school shoes even with a hospital note

I’ve asked MNHQ if they want to run a campaign and they suggested I post here, so here goes.

Personally I am in favour of uniform but would like a common sense approach, which many, many schools achieve with few problems.

Fully expecting posts from people in favour of the rules too.

Batteriesallgone

I've been a governor for 20 odd years and involved in disciplinary hearings, exclusions etc as well as hearing from the HT about problems at school.

My son is a secondary teacher and reports experiences similar to mine.

There are distinct groups at school. Some students we know come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and every help is offered to them. They are treated very sympathetically. Yes if they break rules they will be given a consequence but their situation is taken into consideration. These students, in the schools I know of, would not be punished for uniform infractions. School has actually provided uniform or shoes in some cases.

Then there are other students who, no matter what support is given to them, will continuously break the rules and push the boundaries. They will think nothing of disrupting everyone else's education and their parents care not a jot. They will argue with the school and defend their child regardless. These are the families who decide that rules don't apply to them and they cause every other child's education to suffer.

Weetabix that's great. The way it should be.

Zero tolerance does not allow for this.

Zero tolerance is what people are campaigning about re strict ever decreasing wide availability uniform.

I think you can disagree with it and also realise that Matthew wearing £150 Nike airs is choosing to flout the rules and Tommy who's worn infirm correctly for 8 terms and has a note and plain cheap shoes for a few days are different.

Zero tolerance doesn't allow for difference. It punishes it.

Feel a bit overwhelmed now. Tbh I started this thread on a quick impulse in the hope MNHQ would take it up

If you want a campaign you need to keep it to a limited topic and come up with a clear summary of what you want to achieve.

The UK govt does actually have uniform policy guidelines which at least suggest, if not require, consultation with parents and which discourages single-supplier uniform policies. What's needed is for these guidelines to be given teeth.

Perhaps there should be a maximum recommended price for a full uniform (discouraging for eg expensive logo-ed sports items) and schools should be forced to specify the cost of uniform on the materials they give to applicants.

youarenotkiddingme

I would be shocked at any school employing zero tolerance tbh. Lots might "talk the talk" but behind the scenes are quietly bending the rules for those who truly need it.

Obviously as parents we aren't privy to all of the details so often a disgruntled parent can portray themselves and the child as the victim when it's entirely true.

I wouldn't support any school that has zero tolerance across the board with no exceptions. Those schools should be challenged.

MrsChollySawcutt In schools like those featured in the programme, where do you start to turn around the low achievement, low expectation culture and start generating some pride in the school?

FYI the schools in the current documentary series are not "low achievement, low expectation culture" at all . They are in a very expensive "country" area, and one in particular is the school parents fight to get their children into! I think the programme makers have shot themselves in the foot by not making this clear at the start. These are not sink inner-city schools at all! Plus they have strict uniform, so totally irrelevant to this thread.

I like school uniform. I also think it is pointless when it is generic. My own school went from a really strict everything-from-the-school-shop uniform to white shirt, black or blue skirt or trousers, blue top. Might just as well not have bothered. Everyone in whatever fashion was current and trying to outdo each-other.

DD (11) goes to a girls school with regulation skirt, jumper and blazer. They have revere collar blouses, so no ties. They are allowed to take off blazer and/or jumper when they want to.

Blazer has loads of pockets, most of them internal ones with zips or buttons, so she has somewhere for her keys, bus ticket, debit card, phone (on the journey) and cash.

We can buy second hand uniform (and everyone does) and because it is all the same it doesn't mark you out. Skirts come in different waist sizes and lengths so fit- and suit- both slim tall DD and her larger, shorter friend.

Shoes have to be flat, black and proper shoes - no slip on ballet pumps that they can't walk in. Thick navy tights or navy knee socks. She can dress like the 11 yo she is instead of trying to look like a teenager. She is comfortable and smart, able to run around and appropriately dressed for the weather.

Uniform is expensive but it's decent quality so it lasts, and can be resold. Parents of PP children get a voucher for a whole set of uniform including sports kit.

WeaselsRising if you think those schools are examples of thriving high achievement culture you have really lost the plot!

My DCs don’t go to school currently but I am in favour of this. My eldest would be in year 7 so many of her old friends have just started secondary and she is shocked at the ridiculous rules they have to follow.

I have an autoimmune disease that makes me collapse frequently and it’s worse in heat. I was lucky my school didn’t have blazers because even then the other local schools had the “must wear no matter how hot” rule

Campaigning against the zero tolerance uniform rules at state schools, which punishes children with SEN (notably ASD), broken bones and other injuries, and who are otherwise disadvantaged, is something I'd get behind.

And yes to the pp who says the govt guidelines need to have teeth.

Be careful what you wish for... I can’t imagine not having a uniform. The hassle each day of what to wear, the competition as to who has the best trainers, labelled jeans etc. School uniform is easy and far cheaper than having to pay out for expensive clothing and making sure your child isn’t in the ‘wrong’ clothing. Uniform also protects disadvantaged children.

We can buy second hand uniform (and everyone does) and because it is all the same it doesn't mark you out. Are there times available to buy it if you work full time office hours? I'm happy to buy second hand, but I can only buy it at events like the Christmas fair. 11 or 12 is young to trust them to buy the right size, with growing room, themselves.

I'm not keen on uniform, but if they do have one, it should be affordable/generic, as my dc's is. The only logoed thing is the blazer, and you can just buy the logo badge and put it on any navy blazer.

I think the insistence on super-smart, expensive uniform is largely driven by parents though, or at least by the school wanting to appeal to aspirational parents. The very parents who bemoan the expense and restrictiveness of their 15 year-old dc's school's uniform may often be the ones who were attracted to the school partly by its smart, aspirational image.

Uniform does not make schoolchildren behave better. It just gives teachers more things to have to tell them off (and piss them off) about. Kids know full well that they will be able to wear what they like at university without impeding their learning. Why the insistence on looking 'professional'? Most professional jobs do not require a uniform. Whereas many low-paid non-professional ones do.

Also I imagine for second hand it needs to be well made with decent fabric

No one's saying 'no uniform' - this thread is about the zero tolerance of any perceived infringement even where the child has e.g. broken a limb, or has autism, and is subsequently put in an isolation booth.

I approve of school dress codes. I do not approve of what is happening at some schools (mostly academies) regarding the isolation of children for basically being vulnerable, and the banning by schools of perfectly sensible coats, footwear and bookbags.

But again autumn that's multiple issues and none of them are straight forward (especially use of isolation which seems to never be debated rationally and always ends up with hyperbole and entrenched positions).

This is why I think in genea it's difficult to affect change in schools because too often too many people bring in too many issues and it undermines any attempt at pushing for change.

If there's going to be a campaign for uniform issues then there should be a clear campaign for uniform. People's thoughts on academies, isolation etc are not relevant.

It doesn’t seem to effect the children in my little bit of London. Lots of the secondary schools are non uniform.

They have dress codes though.
No ripped denim.
No open toe or backed shoes and no heels.
The body must be covered from shoulder to mid thigh. So no vest tops.

Interestingly there doesn’t seem to be an issue with children wanting to wear designer labels. Most of the children wear jeans and jumpers. Some wear all sorts of things and look like art students. No one seems to care what couloir hair the children have either.

There are a lot of Doctor Martins though which are obviously prohibitively expensive for many. Sensible though I suppose.

Two of the non uniform schools are outstanding with extremely good progress 8 scores-girl schools. The other is mixed sex but is good.

Whereas in my part of London all the schools have uniform and some have the reputation of being ridiculously strict. Which I find odd because the primaries are very reasonable - the staff say explicitly the first priority is for kids to turn up dressed for the weather, then ideally in something approximating the uniform. If a child is in something non-uniform then after a day or two the school will ask if there are problems at home. Which seems to work reasonably well. Kids turn up happily.

I'm worried about secondary as ds has ASD and haircuts are practically impossible, and getting him to wear any new shoes is increasingly problematic. I can send notes in and keep trying to get him to wear other clothes but if he hides them or destroys them then he still deserves an education.

YY primaries almost all seem very sensible then it all goes wrong sometimes at secondaries.

It does sound as if the focus needs to be on enforcing the uniform ideas that are already in the Admissions Code, I think anyway??

DD's in yr6. I'm staggered by the uniform lists of the secondary schools we've picked. She's already in size 5.5 shoes, but we've found a good brand online.

I think you are being a bit precious. School uniforms are entirely at the discretion of the school. There is a reason for this. Different schools have different needs. Some schools don’t have uniforms. Others have very strict ones. They are often implemented to deal with social problems and bullying. They have a purpose and it’s only reasonable that schools should have the discretion to set the kind of policy they feel is appropriate. In rare instance that the school may make a poor decision the students may take it to judicial review. In the instance that the school has made an unpopular decision families may pull children out. The system surrounding uniform policies is already adequate.

race your argument only works if there is a choice about which school a child can attend.
in many areas of england there is no choice. the child is assigned a school by the lea and that's it, either that school or nothing. and, frankly, homeschooling is not a viable alternative to school in most cases.

@Racecardriver

I can't pull my child out though. There's no feasible alternative. So my DD is stuck with being sent to isolation when I couldn't afford to replace her shoes - and yes they did fall apart 'overnight' already cheap shoes tend to do that. They disintegrated during the course of a day.
We also live in the furthest outlying village that the school bus serves. The estate is not gritted or cleared, only the main road, they won't allow her to wear her sturdy, black lace up boots to wait for and travel to school in, and change at school, because boots aren't allowed. And yes, she's reported if she boards the bus in them, and then gets isolation because the bus is seen as an extension of school.
I don't see how cold and wet feet enhance education in any way shape or form. There answer is that school is gritted and cleared therefore there's no need for boots. They refuse to acknowledge that she's not picked up from the doorstep, but last year had to walk through ankle deep snow and wait for a bus that was obviously running late because of road conditions.
These measures have been brought in since a very poor Ofsted report and a new head. Children having wet and cold feet all day, and sliding about on ice will have zero impact on whether the school manages to employ and keep a maths teacher instead of the 8 (4 of which weren't qualified in maths) my DD has had since starting secondary school.

Re school shoes.

If the child has an injury or is awaiting some form of treatment for foot, knee or leg pain then they should be able to wear whatever footwear most supports the difficulty. Beyond those temporary situations parents need to find a way for the child to wear shoes.

I wore trainers all through high school. Got my first job in an office and struggled big time in shoes. Went through lots of pain, surgery and discussions with line managers. Dress code policies exist in the workplace too. I found myself conforming to corporate dress code for the sake of my career.

20 years later, I've finally fixed the problem. I needed good quality leather shoes. That's all. My mum was a single parent, bought shoes from charity shops. I now know I have a quite common condition with my feet. We couldn't afford the right shoes, but at no point did we know that was the problem.

I could have alleviated the problem in my late teens if I'd known it was just shoes. But instead I've damaged soft tissue, had knee pain, back pain and shoulder pain due to poor posture caused by crap shoes.

So I would ask all parents to work within their means and with the NHS to identify sources of pain and treat the underlying problems, rather than cover it up with a pair of trainers.

Mysparklingpersonality

With regards to your daughter travelling to school in the snow I would escalate that through the complaints procedure and up to the chair of governors.

I have never known a school to not allow students to travel to and from school in inappropriate clothing. They can't wear coats in school can they but they wouldn't expect them to walk to school in the snow in only a blazer.

Is there no way to buy school shoes that are more sturdy so that she can wear them in inclement weather though? Then even if she gets caught in the rain they won't fall apart.

The coat and scarf thing is ridiculous. My school had a rule that all coats had to be stored in a locker (randomly assigned, could be the other end of the school) or carried in a bag (fat chance with all the textbooks we had to bring).

I remember walking into the building minding my own business wearing a scarf and a jobsworth teacher demanding to know why. I felt like saying "because it's below freezing outside you twat" but was too much of a goody two shoes at that age.