Overly strict uniform policies in secondary schools - does anyone want MNHQ to run a campaign about this?

[TooStressyForMyOwnGood]

So many secondary schools now seem to have super strict uniform policies. I feel this results in:

Low pupil morale
Parents having to spend a fortune on the latest uniform
Almost impossible to find a black school shoe that is appropriate and yet actually fit for purpose
Exclusions, isolations and detentions for flimsy reasons

And my personal favourites:-

Blazers have to be worn all summer even if children faint
Measuring school skirt length
Pupils not allowed non-school shoes even with a hospital note

I’ve asked MNHQ if they want to run a campaign and they suggested I post here, so here goes.

Personally I am in favour of uniform but would like a common sense approach, which many, many schools achieve with few problems.

Fully expecting posts from people in favour of the rules too.

I’m with you OP

Petty, over enforced uniform rules just result in parents who would usually support the school refusing to do so.

Forcing parents to buy from one overpriced supplier should also be banned.

If following uniform code is problematic for those on low incomes how on Earth are their children going to feel when they don't have the latest fashions and designer labels of their wealthier schoolmates?

@MrsChollySawcutt
In practice that's not how it works though. Students in countries without school uniforms tend to wear practical clothes (jeans, sweatshirts, trainers) that don't need to cost a fortune. Those groups of French and Italian teenagers you see in London wearing identikit skinny jeans, trainers and sweatshirts? That's what they wear to school. No one can tell if you get your skinny jeans at H&M or from an upmarket brand (and in my experience as the parent of two kids at non-uniform French schools no one cares).

The result is that parents don't have to buy two sets of clothes (uniform, non-uniform). We are not on a low income but my son gets by with four pairs of plain jeans/trousers and 2 pairs of shoes (canvas shoes for summer, and a pair of black Nike trainers from the factory shop).

supporting more sanctions and quicker escalation for those parents and students who are outright defiant
You want more sanctions and quicker escalation? Oh dear.

I would happily support stopping school uniform. My DS is a very tall & broad 14 year old, he has to have 2XL tops for them to be long enough for him to tuck them in, the uniform shop only sells up to XL off the peg, anything bigger has to be ordered & manufactured after order which can take up to 4 weeks from order to delivery. He wears size 11HH fitting shoes when school ranges stop at size 9, he has dyspraxia & walks very badly in shoes, he can wreck a £75 pair of shoes in 6 weeks, if he could wear trainers he would walk better & they would last longer. I went to a school where we didn't wear uniform, none of us turned out any worse for not wearing it, it makes me really angry that they are punishing pupils daily for minor infringements of uniform rules yet when I went in school for a meeting the head of year was wearing leggings & had pink hair. My DS had dyed his hair during the 6 weeks holiday & I spent the last week of the holiday stripping the colour out as much as I could, there was a tiny hint of the colour left when he returned to school & he got told off for this, his hair was tidy but having natural blonde hair the colour left traces behind, it wasn't an unnatural colour (strawberry blonde) but I refused to bleach his hair to remove the last traces. Pupils at his school get the same punishment for uniform infringements as a child would get for punching another in the face, so much time is wasted that could be spent teaching, staff moan all the time that there isn't enough time to teach the new GCSE curriculum, if they weren't chasing pupils for uniform problems then maybe grades would improve.

Weetabix. School had copies of all ds consultant letters and physio programme (although I do it at home). They knew his diagnosis's, knew which professionals he was under. They knew he had difficulties in walking from this. What they wouldn't accept was he wore the boots prescribed to him because nowhere in the 20 pages did it specifically say why he worn them.
His consultants beef was that the HT had access to descriptions of his progressive neurological disorder which 'may' mean he requires walking aids or to use a wheelchair eventually. He said she could have and should have applied some empathy and common sense before thinking of school rules. Which included a discussion with me rather than the 'telling off' I got as "your ds isn't above the rules because he has a medical condition".

I was told to take them to tribunal for disability discrimination. But guess what? That would cost me time and money and energy I didn't have to spend. Why should we challenge this through tribunals when it would be better to have a common sense approach applied in the first instance.

I seriously think most schools get this right and are great places to educate kids like the one my ds currently attends. They don't always get it right but there's no doubt in my mind they care and attempt to get it right.

But there is definitely an increasing number of schools taking this hardline approach - it's damaging and not improving outcomes.

Cuckoo I have NOT stated all schools are like this once. If you take the time to read my posts fully and carefully you'll see I've repeated many times MOST schools do take a common sense approach.

But an increasing number are adopting this approach and that's what needs challenging.

@MrsChollySawcutt she was compliant. Luckily I have enough money and no issue with whatever they wanted us parents to buy.

Initially (yr 7-9) I supported the school 100% but when she was sent home in yr10 for the "wrong shoes" when I could prove she was wearing them in yr7.

Also as another poster said, clothes sit differently on different kids. She was also sent home because the trousers were a "little too tight on the thighs".

Funnily enough on the many numerous occasions I went to the school to discuss, there were many many kids walking past these same teachers with absolutely no recourse.

The teachers were using these rules as a way to bully specific children.

I know teaching is difficult but I believe the more draconian you are the more teenagers rebel. Pick your battles.

But there is definitely an increasing number of schools taking this hardline approach - it's damaging and not improving outcomes.

Somebody has started a rumour that this a ‘quick fix’ for all problems. So schools do this rather than actually address the many, many problems their schools are riddled with ie CP issues, behavioural problems, SEN, disabilities, pupils living in poverty, inexperienced staff, untrained staff, high turnover of staff, MH problems in pupils, etc, etc, etc.

It’s a result of the Academy system and schools being run as a corporations where the pupils are there to promote the schools ‘brand’ and no-one actually gives a fuck about their needs.

Thanks so much for all replies.

RepealtheGRA, I personally hate the academy system but know there is no way I will ever be able to challenge this as a parent .

Feel a bit overwhelmed now. Tbh I started this thread on a quick impulse in the hope MNHQ would take it up.

I suppose what I / we would like is some kind of flexible uniform policy although I realise even that is divisive. I’d like it that children can have whatever hairstyle they like too but understand not everyone agrees with this.

Any ideas where to start anyone? Ideally without outing myself on here? The government’s current education policy clearly favours academisation and super strictness so I’m not sure they would be interested. If TV programmes like School and Hospital can’t lead to change then what is the answer except a MN campaign.

RepealTheGRA
Having rules and sticking to them isn't a quick fix but it certainly is what has to come first when turning a school around (especially if it's one with years of poor performance and a reputation for poor behaviour). Nobody can learn in an environment where teachers have to pick their battles and be inconsistent for fear of students verbally abusing them. That is the reality of some schools (I've worked in them).
In fact, staff having to pick their battles is a sign of poor leadership (because usually that means leadership haven't set out and enforced a consistent behaviour policy). If a rule is a rule then it needs following unless there's a reasonable adjustment that is needed for an individual child.

Sweating the small stuff does prevent larger issues arising for most students and it mean you can focus energy on the notoriously badly behaved students rather than very nice students who have broken rules because the school don't uphold them.
It has nothing to do with being academies or otherwise in my experience. It's slightly irritating seeing 'academies' given as some boogieman explanation for any issue in education. I'm ideologically opposed to academies, but lots of what's on MN isn't fair.

Having established that clear rules, clear behaviour policy with consistent application is essential for improving a school, the issue then moves to the nature of the rules. In my opinion that is where some schools get it wrong, and sometimes majorly wrong.

It's just my opinion, but I do genuinely believe that trying to promote change in schools means being clear on the specific issue, being aware of the issues linked to it and addressing them (what happens too often is either too many tangent issues are brought in or there's lots of hyperbole which obscures the actual issue).

OP I'm really not sure that a uniform campaign is the place to start given the shocking state of our education system.

Academisation, woeful under funding, lack of SEN support, teacher shortage all of these are far more pressing in my opinion.

Yes you'll get some parents on board but in my opinion they tend to be, in the main, the ones that care least about education. Style over substance.

Uniform just seems a distraction from the travesty that is happening in schools at the moment.

Hear hear Weetabix, I completely agree. As I said before, just watch the BBC programme 'School' and you will see that there are much bigger and more pressing issues than uniform.

There is a school that doesn't have enough qualified maths teachers so many pupils are being taught by a PE teacher who doesn't understand maths himself. One his pupils is shown having as dropped from an expected grade 4 in his maths GCSE to a 2.

In schools like those featured in the programme, where do you start to turn around the low achievement, low expectation culture and start generating some pride in the school? That's a much more pressing issue than bleating about uniform.

Totally agree Weetabixandshreddies there are a lot of issues in U.K. schools. Sadly a lot of schools seem to have fixated on bizarre uniform infringements rather than dealing with the many, many issues which are fast becoming a national scandal. Parents need to support schools, incoherent uniform policies which punish financially struggling families while more serious issues are ignored is not the way to get that support.

Weetabix spit on. But it's these things combined with the rules that exclude already disadvantaged pupils.

Send funding is short. Then these pupils attend schools where tracking teachers is a must and lack of eye contact is a punishable offence. Drives out the inconfident and some autistic pupils. Drives up results as no send to bring them down. School says "look it works".

And I'm not making it up nor exaggerating. I'm on send groups and I've seen actual emails sent by HT that categorically state "no" excuses or leeway given. And I actually believe if the funding was there for send these pupils could manage the environments.

Even my sons brilliant current secondary school tried to say he had to do top button up and tuck in shirt despite sensory sensory report clearly not to as it affect sons MH and ability to engage - because it's school rules.

Luckily they are actually sensible and when I pointed out 'I understand rules but the law (equality act and reasonable adjustments) trumps school rules and they have no choice' - they dropped it.

I've also heard "but it's not fair on the Irene pupils who have to do it". My reply to that is "ask every one if your pupils if they'd like ds degenerative disorder or to tuck their shirt in. See what they say?"

I think we do need a campaign to make inform more accessible for all pupils and more affordable. Not a campaign to make schools drop punishment for not following rules. But perhaps guidance on how to apply it fairly. I liked the idea above about a spares cupboard to draw out the wonts from the cants.

@Weetabixandshreddies that's absolute rubbish to tar everyone who doesn't agree with school uniform rules with not caring about their child's education.

For years I put up with their bullying behaviour BECAUSE I did not want my daughters education disrupted. I'm actual fact I saw them bullying the kids that were compliant because they didn't have control over the more unruly kids. A draconian uniform policy will help no one.

Btw. My daughter got all A's and a First I'm her degree. Fuck uniform policies for having a hand in that.

OP I think a national campaign would have to focus on suppliers who have a monopoly on school uniforms and the financial incentives to schools of insisting on them. Would tie in with funding issues schools face.

@MaisyPops

It's why if there is a campaign to change uniform rules or to push for more sensible uniform, I'd love it to go hand in hand with supporting more sanctions and quicker escalation for those parents and students who are outright defiant. (E.g. schools have spare clean uniform, you get changed into it & go to lessons, refusal is defiance, isolation etc.)

Yes I totally agree with this, and I do think it comes under 'comnon sense's tbh.
I support DDs school, however why should I be forced to spend money I don't have to replace something immediately when it'll have no immediate impact on education. It's totally counterproductive to then place my DD in isolation because I can't afford to replace a pair of shoes until pay day. Why do I need to be forced to go without heat or decent food to replace a pair of shoes immediately when I can replace them in a few days/a week. Putting my DD in isolation is only going to highlight the fact I can't afford to replace them immediately, and it puts pressure on me to deprive the rest of the family because DD doesn't want to go into isolation and be left wide open to being bullied because of the reason.
But because some parents decide to not follow the rules parents like me pay the price. I'm far too busy working to try and make ends meet to go and make a DM sad face, even if that was my style. But it does make me resent the school, and the other parents that can afford to replace things or buy the right stuff in the first place but don't because they think they're above the rules.
I will, and have supported the school when DD has been in the wrong. She's been sanctioned at home. Teens will try it on!

I'd support a uniform policy that didn't punish people for being poor, injured or disabled.

RepealTheGRA
I agree with you.
Personally, I think a campaign pushing for an end to expensive single supply uniform policies would be the logical way forward.

I looked up a school known to me for having a fixed limited supplier uniform. They have a particular design only available through the school provider and then have a get out clause saying 'items can be sourced elsewhere but they must be indistinguishable from the ones listed with our official supplier'. I won't put the costs on here, but they were shockingly expensive.

A campaign telling schools how to write uniform policies would be unreasonable in my opinion (and would get bogged down and hijacked probably by people of the view 'but I want my child to wear fashion items... does an item of clothing affect their brain?? Nooo didn't think so' (insert smug look here)
A campaign hitting issues of single supplier, cost etc would probably get support from parents and staff.

looked up a school known to me for having a fixed limited supplier uniform. They have a particular design only available through the school provider and then have a get out clause saying 'items can be sourced elsewhere but they must be indistinguishable from the ones listed with our official supplier'. I won't put the costs on here, but they were shockingly expensive.

You either live near me or this is shockingly shit (unofficial) national policy.

The problem with school uniform is if it is not enforced then children push the boundaries, with parents approval, until the uniform is not being followed by the majority. Our school uniform is very reasonable.

Black/dark grey trousers (not jeans) or black knee length skirt
Black shoes (all black, no logo, shoe like trainers are ok)
White shirt and school tie
Black or dark grey jumper with no brand logos
S5/S6 (Yr 11/12?) as above with school logo black blazers

Even with a sensible uniform, all can be bought from anywhere and kids look smart, parents still allow them to break it with trainers with bright white soles, inappropriate skirts or florescent brand logos which means the head has to enforce the uniform again for all.

Maybe start a mumsnet campaign for parents to ensure their children follow the uniform rules of their school and let the school get on with the important stuff?

My sister blazer last year cost £50, so yes to common sense approach. Especially since she had a rather large growth spurt and it became to small for her in less than one term.

I’m in. Don’t like uniforms at all tbh.

What I don’t like about school uniforms rules is the narrative that has sprung up about rule breaking parents.

It makes me uncomfortable that people are instantly assuming there’s a segment of society which hates the education system, actively encourages their child to reject it / rebel, but yet instead of looking to break down walls people are saying oh entitled parents and entrenching themselves in this us vs them narrative.

And we all know what segment of society is being referred to here don’t we. Social mobility is in the gutter after all, everyone seems to have adjusted to the idea that there are proles who will beget proles and we can all moan about how chavvy they are...

Anyone who has experienced it knows how SHIT it is to be repeatedly explaining yourself to middle class teachers why you’ve got the wrong shoes / insert rule infringement here. No one wants to be Jonny’s mum, approaching the school with a sob story about no money. People should be allowed their dignity.

BrokenWing

That's the reason why schools have got stricter and stricter with uniform and introduced single suppliers - because a less strict uniform was abused by parents who pushed the boundaries.

Maisypops

When I quoted this bit But there is definitely an increasing number of schools taking this hardline approach - it's damaging and not improving outcomes. earlier my comments were in relation to this in relation to uniform. I am all in favour of rules and zero tolerance of poor behaviour, what I am NOT in favour of is zero tolerance of an ever changing and expensive uniform policy while a blind eye is turned to assaults and dealing/using on school premises.

RepealTheGRA
It's part of a MAT who have that approach across all their schools.

But I've worked in 2 MATs that are nothing like that (which is why in cautious about the 'but academies...' line being used).