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Petitions and activism

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU to think you should sign this petition to ask the government to consult with women about Self ID?

999 replies

MIngerDynasty · 12/03/2018 14:18

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Your details remain private, I don't want to start yet another trans thread but I thnk we can all agree that there needs to be more discussion with the people affected by the changes in law!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
RatRolyPoly · 12/03/2018 15:03

Women are not oppressed on the basis of their 'gender' they are oppressed on the basis of the material reality of their biological sex.

This statement on it's own I'm afraid doesn't stand up to scrutiny, although it's a very popular sentiment.

There's a very good case to say that whilst control over a woman's reproductive capacity is one of the ways in which she is oppressed, her biology is not why she is oppressed.

Some people believe it is why, some people believe it is how. But that statement as if it is indisputable fact is misleading. Voila link for information:

www.ibiblio.org/ahkitj/wscfap/arms1974/Regl_womens_prog/Women%20and%20Men%20in%20Partnership/05e%20Historical%20Analysis.htm

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 12/03/2018 15:03

I will be reporting all speech both in person and online that refers to me as “cis” to the police. I consider it othering and a form of hate speech.

Truscum · 12/03/2018 15:03

But I am sick of every day seeing a new thread pop up on MN and the same lazy, pearl-clutching, dishonest, disingenuous arguments being thrown around by women who can't see that extending rights to others doesn't mean losing your own

Do you know when women first started to get their own spaces? Why they needed them?

Right now a woman has the right to know that when she goes swimming/gym she will be able to change out of the sight of men. Can you not see how that could be very important to some minorities or traumatised women?

Right now, if a woman has been raped or abused she has the right to seek shelter in a refuge, a place to be away from men and recover. Think this will remain? See ‘Danielle’ Muscato.

Up until recently young girls had the opportunity to join the girl guides and by all accounts found it extremely freeing to be able to be themselves without boys looking on. They thrived, were able to talk through different issues that affected girls freely with older female leaders and their peers (periods etc)

Now? Now the girl guides has changed their policy. Not only can anyone with a penis now join if they ‘identify’ as a woman, the organisers of overnight trips etc. Cannot even tell parents if their daughter will be sharing sleeping space with a man/boy.

Can you not think of any vulnerable/traumatised groups of girls this may affect?

I am so sick of the brain dead mantra of ‘transwomen are women’ No I’m bloody not! I am a gay transsexual, biologically a man despite extensive surgery to try to ease my diagnosed mental disorder.

I would NEVER try to gain access to women’s or little girls spaces.

I would NEVER demand that women give way or feel threatened just to validate something that even I know is not real.

I would NEVER think it was fair for me to pit my superior physical strength and musculoskeletal structure against a woman in, say, a boxing match. Or Australian football. Or weight lifting.

I would never claim that I am I fact a literal woman. I no longer have a penis, but if I did, and was like these straight middle aged men who seem to love having theirs, I wouldn’t be demanding that lesbians suck my ‘lady dick’ and call them bigots for refusing.

And if you want to know the type of people who are demanding this then search #transgirls on Twitter. THAT is who is trying to acces vulnerable women and children.

Something dark, insidious and hateful is hiding behind ‘Trutrans’ people. They want debate to be silenced because just the slightest bit of sunlight shows their ideology up for the misogynistic claptrap it is.

I have signed. Everyone in my trans support group will sign.

stitchglitched · 12/03/2018 15:04

Fugitive are Stonewall wrong then?

carryondoctor · 12/03/2018 15:04

Rat - but her biology IS why she is oppressed.

Because fundamentally it is men who do the oppressing.

MIngerDynasty · 12/03/2018 15:05

Nosquirells. The very sexist point point fugitive is making is that transwomen won't do those things because they have lady brains. So anyone who does those things is really a man without a lady brain.

But for those of who aren't sexist we don't think men are just walking rape robots, who are born that way.

We thnk 50% of the population have been socalised in a way to believe they can treat the other 50% of the population badly if they wear a short skirt, go out at night, talk a certain way... Which means of course that the male lesbians who have also been socialised in this way are also a risk in the same way any male is.

Not that they just have morally inferior man brains.

OP posts:
carryondoctor · 12/03/2018 15:06

Does anyone else feel like standing up and giving Truscum a round of applause for that post?

Elendon · 12/03/2018 15:06

Thank you Truscum

Collidascope · 12/03/2018 15:07

👏👏👏 Truscum

NoSquirrels · 12/03/2018 15:07

The thing that properly fucks me off about all this is that there is a spectrum of opinion on this issue, as with everything - for instance, I don't care actually if anyone wants to "call themselves a woman" - I am happy to agree that most trans people should be referred to with their preferred pronouns and whether you call yourself a woman, a Dalmation or a three-toed alien sloth I couldn't give a shiny shit in day to day life ... I am more than happy for International Women's Day to include women who have a different experience to me but this is CHANGING THE LAW SO THAT BIOLOGY IS IRRELEVANT.

That is so far from OK.

I might fancy being a Dalmation but the local dog's home is not going to house me just because I say I am. Which is the way it should be.

RatRolyPoly · 12/03/2018 15:07

Um, I've looked at all the concerns so far listed by posters and can't identify a single one of them that is in any way impacted by whether or not one can self-identify in order to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Can anybody help me out?

Thanks.

Theshittyendofthestick · 12/03/2018 15:08

Signed

GaryBarlowsTaxReturn · 12/03/2018 15:08

Signed.

RatRolyPoly · 12/03/2018 15:10

carryondoctor that argument would hold water if women were the only group who are oppressed. So no race-based oppression, no poverty-based oppression etc. But we're not the only oppressed group. We just share a biology which can be used as a means to oppress us. Others are oppressed through different means. The means does not indicate the reason.

NoSquirrels · 12/03/2018 15:11

@Truscum Flowers

Theshittyendofthestick · 12/03/2018 15:12

ratrolypoly just thinking about your comment regarding women's oppression not being related to their biology. When I was raped, vaginally, was that not, in any way related to my biology? I wish I'd known that at the time. I perhaps could have fucking identified my way out of it Hmm

Elendon · 12/03/2018 15:13

No RatRolyPoly You have little understanding of the 1986 public order act.

stitchglitched · 12/03/2018 15:13

transgender does not include crossdressing

Just to emphasise the point- YES IT DOES. Stonewall's definition makes it very clear. Please don't call me ignorant when you are posting things without even a cursory google of the current definition and telling transexuals they aren't allowed to define themselves as such (but we should all accept 'cis' because you say so).

Excellent post Truscum but I doubt many of those who purport to speak for you will bother to acknowledge it.

carryondoctor · 12/03/2018 15:13

Oh, so because other groups are also oppressed (again mostly by men), we should just suck it up?

No, I don't think so.

This is all about men. The rabid activists (and like PPs, the trans people I know are worried about the harm that they do to the cause and also do not support the proposed changes) are actually banging on about how men should see women; the transwomen who want to impress on us all what a woman should be are actually looking at what a man "should" want; the women who fear the changes don't fear the transwomen; they fear men abusing them.

It's depressing.

NoSquirrels · 12/03/2018 15:14

I've looked at all the concerns so far listed by posters and can't identify a single one of them that is in any way impacted by whether or not one can self-identify in order to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

@RatRolyPoly why does self-ID help, is the opposite angle to your question, in that case? Why is there such a push for self-ID, if none of it affects anything anyway?

Elendon · 12/03/2018 15:14

Can anybody help me out?

If you cannot work that out for yourself, then I respectfully suggest you refrain from further posting on the matter.

RatRolyPoly

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 12/03/2018 15:16

Signed

Rat Wheter I agree with all in the link you provided or not, it identifies biological sex as the root of oppression - it says that women stayed at home due to being the ones to give birth and men being stronger, and it all escalated from there. How do you think women giving birth and men being stronger should be classed if not as biological sex differences? This:
At different points of conflict, women must have fought desperately for their declining rights and status. But they lost. To sum up, the origins and bases of patriarchy do not lie solely (as commonly believed) or even primarily in biological factors. It was much more than a question of mere physical strength or women's role as child‑bearers. Social, economic and political factors contributed greatly to the emergence of women's unequal status.
is incorrect. Those social, economic and political factors are identified at the beginning of the document as being based on biological differences.

Otherwise, please explain how it is that in almost every society, women are the oppressed class? I can’t imagine what you think lead to this if not the relative biological vulnerability of women?

ShotsFired · 12/03/2018 15:17

@carryondoctor Does anyone else feel like standing up and giving Truscum a round of applause for that post?

I'll join you. I have some fierce cheering going on in my head right now.

DarthArts · 12/03/2018 15:18

Thanks for posting OP. Signed.

@Truscum - excellent post.

Being anti self ID has nothing to do with being anti Trans.

TERFragetteCity · 12/03/2018 15:18

There's a very good case to say that whilst control over a woman's reproductive capacity is one of the ways in which she is oppressed, her biology is not why she is oppressed.

Lol. Weird though how it just happens to be all women. Now what other than their biology do they have in common? I'll have a little think on that one.