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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
SirChenjin · 03/11/2015 20:47

I agree - but the words wisdom and circumcision don't belong in the same sentence.

UncertainSmile · 03/11/2015 22:48

Have you got some kind of fetish about this,
Cote?
Very bizarre.

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2015 22:54

No doubt, since quoting scientific studies and talking about observations in a Muslim country can only mean "fetish" Hmm

SirChenjin · 04/11/2015 07:39

Fetish or otherwise, thankfully the weight of scientific evidence means we don't routinely circumcise boys here.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2015 07:53

LOL, you are unbelievable Grin

The only scientific studies on this thread are the ones that I posted. And they all say the same thing - circumcision does not hinder sexual performance or pleasure, and it largely prevents not only infectious diseases but also non-infectious genital conditions.

samG76 · 04/11/2015 09:08

Sirchenjin - that's exactly the point - because it is not common here, the only people it affects are Jews and Muslims. So the petition is really saying that Jewish and Muslim children need to be protected from their own parents. Given that by most measures Jewish children have the best life chances of any group in the country, many parents will find it insulting, though as discussed above the chance of anything being enacted is nil.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 09:27

Even the The American Academy of Pediatrics are on the fence on this one - some might argue they are in a difficult policitial position with pressure from their members to support the procedure. They say:

"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child’s current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child." AAP Policy

In essence there may be some small medical benefits but not enough to routinely chop of part of a boys penis.

There are lots of groups of men who oppose male circumsician, including many Jews and Rabbis. There is also lots of anecdonal evidence about loss of senstivitely during sex.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 09:31

It might not be common here but it is fairly routine in the US (which is why the AAP are in difficult position). For me this is nothing to do with bashing any religion or culture, it just doesn't make any sense to do this to a perfectly healthy child. If I went and asked for my daughters earlobes to be lopped off because my culture demanded it I would be rightly shown the door.

samG76 · 04/11/2015 09:40

Twofalls

"including many Jews and Rabbis".

This just isn't the case. There is a tiny number of self-declared "rabbis", generally unaffiliated to any movement. As the OP's article says, all streams of Judaism support it, and all would consider any ban a major threat to Jewish life.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 10:03

So you are totally discounting the views of people such as these by calling them a "tiny minority":

www.facebook.com/JewsAgainstCircumcision/

jewishcircumcision.org/

A book with a foreward by a rabbi, endorsed by Rabbis: www.amazon.co.uk/Questioning-Circumcision-A-Jewish-Perspective/dp/0964489562 (Foreward by a Rabbi, quite a lot of endorsements by Rabbis)

A simple google search finds reams of Jewish men and women against it as well as a number of pretty reasoned articles in the Jewish press. Many say that people are too frightened to speak out against their communities.

And on a personal note, absolutely it affects sexual pleasure. My DH can account for that.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2015 10:08

"on a personal note, absolutely it affects sexual pleasure. My DH can account for that."

I see your anecdote and raise it you this systematic review of all available data on circumcision: Does male circumcision affect sexual function, sensitivity, or satisfaction?.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2015 10:10

"discounting the views of people such as these by calling them a "tiny minority"

Well, they are a tiny minority.

(1) How many Jews do you know and (2) how many of them even know a Jew who has not been circumcised? My guess: (1) Some, and (2) Zero.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2015 10:11

Why don't you start a Chat thread asking Jewish MNers if they know of a male Jew who is not circumcised? It would be interesting to see if you can even find one person who says they know an uncircumcised Jew.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 10:14

Not arguing with that article, am just saying that my DH knows that being circumcised (for medical reasons in his late teens) has effected his ability to enjoy sex. ie, it was better before. So even if the vast majority of men are not affected, some are. That's all I am saying.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 10:21

So because the people who are brave enough to speak out are a minority we discount their views? The groups I linked to are just a couple of many groups I found with a quick search.

But they are a minority so lets not listen to them.

NinjaLeprechaun · 04/11/2015 10:32

"Why don't you start a Chat thread asking Jewish MNers if they know of a male Jew who is not circumcised? It would be interesting to see if you can even find one person who says they know an uncircumcised Jew."
I'm not Jewish, personally, but I know several Jewish men who are not circumcised. In their 30s and younger, mainly, and in the US and Canada. (Countries where circumcision is more common.) Some of their parents are cultural Jews, true enough, but some are religious Jews as well.

Out of curiosity, did you read the article I linked? Is 100 circumcision related deaths a year (US average) an acceptable number to you?

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 10:47

Cote, I noticed that upthread you say that people may be unaware of the benefits. Were you aware the NHS now states that: "routine circumcision may offer "a number of potential benefits", including lowering the risk of some types of infection, but added: "Most healthcare professionals now agree that the risks associated with routine circumcision, such as infection and excessive bleeding, outweigh any potential benefits." Are you disagreeing with them? And the AAP will not even endorse it.

So essentially there may be some small benefits but the risks outweigh them. And that is not even touching on the point a pp made that the "only body you should lob bits off is your own". And that is without considering the trauma and pain the infants experience whilst undergoing the procedure and afterwards. Or that there is a growing, albeit small, minority of Jewish men and women speaking out against it.

Crazypetlady · 04/11/2015 10:54

I am not anti religion. However I couldn't give a shit if certain religions were affected by stopping circumcision for religious reasons. It is cruel unnecessary and selfish. It is also outdated as humans we adapt and learn , there are plenty of things done for religious reasons in the past that we don't do now as we know better.

samG76 · 04/11/2015 11:00

Ninjaleprachaun - 100 is a bogus statistic. Much disputed.

When you say you know people with religious parents who didn't bother, exactly how religious are we talking about? Do they keep kosher, for example?

I personally know one person who didn't have a brit for her son, but she isn't a member of any community, doesn't really identify as a Jew, never goes to shul, and has MH issues

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 11:14

I am Jewish by birth, but am largely non-practising.

I and have never come across any Jewish boy in the UK who had not been circumcised.

It seems to be the last Jewish practise to fall away. People who don't keep kosher, don't ever go to synagogue, don't fast on Yom Kippur will still circumcise their sons b

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 11:15

And it's interesting how Jews and Muslims rarely post on these threads.

They always end up an internet echo chamber.

friedorboiled · 04/11/2015 11:28

I was circumcised due to health reasons at the age of 12 and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It hurt like hell having it done at that age in hospital

I had my son circumcised as a baby as it's much cleaner, and after a chat with mates, it's also much more enjoyable in sex. It was performed by a Jewish mohel and my son didn't even cry.

By the way, my son is perfectly well, healthy, and quite happy with my decision to have him circumcised.

Oh and it's a sign that he's Jewish, which he's proud of.

I really resent you calling me mutilated by the way.

NinjaLeprechaun · 04/11/2015 11:29

Sam did you read the article I linked? They explained how they came up with that number, a process that seemed perfectly logical to me, and why it was controversial to some. In actual fact you often see much higher numbers quoted, but with much less credibility. (Honestly, when I went looking for statistics I was expecting it to be much lower - but imo any number is too high.)

When I said religious that's exactly what I meant. Which does include, but isn't limited to, keeping kosher. Their thinking being that if their sons grew up and decided that it was an important part of their personal faith, they could then make the decision themselves. (To the best of my knowledge, none of them have.)

I have no idea what having MH issues has to do with anything. Is the suggestion that her ability to make decisions should be called into question in some way? Does that also apply to people with MH issues who do choose to circumcise their sons?

samG76 · 04/11/2015 11:40

Ninja - you may have found the one family in the world that keeps kosher but doesn't have a brit, but i find it hard to believe. By the same token, surely they should have filled their fridge with ham and bacon, and told their kids that if it was an important part of their personal faith they didn't need to eat it.

Apart from anything else, the concept of "personal faith" is alien to Judaism (it is a protestant concept). That's why I'm not buying the story. And most people who keep kosher have some connection to their local community. Did they not think it odd?

NinjaLeprechaun · 04/11/2015 12:03

"Personal faith" was my term, not theirs. However, very very few religious people live completely outside the culture of the country they live in. The country in this instance was Canada, where personal religious freedom is a cornerstone of the culture - arguably it was a deciding factor the recent election. Yes I'm sure the decision was controversial among Jewish friends and family, but they made it nonetheless.
(And evidence would show that they are not "the one family in the world" to do so. Even if you don't happen to know any.)

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