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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
UncertainSmile · 01/11/2015 22:08

Men who are circumcised live entirely normal lives. Its about on a par with ear piercing. I just cannot understand why people get het up about it.

Oh fuck off, what a stupid thing to say.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:09

I don't agree with it however it is in no way comparable to FGM and it's silly to pretend they are the same thing.

BertrandRussell · 01/11/2015 22:11

Yes of course. Anybody who isn't an uncivilised barbarian would sign it.

timelytess · 01/11/2015 22:12

For: God seems to have been dead keen on this one. Except in the Bible it says 'circumcise your hearts' instead...
Against: It hurts babies. Its mutilation. The babies cannot consent. Anyone who wanted it done could have it done in adulthood.
Reluctantly against, therefore. But I don't know if I'll sign. I'll think about it.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:12

Why is that a stupid thing to say?

What bran said is true. You may not agree with infant male circumcision (I don't) but she's right when she says that men who are circumcised live entirely normal lives.

annandale · 01/11/2015 22:13

I'm not going to sign but that doesn't mean a lot as I no longer sign any internet petitions.

I don't think male infant circumcision is equivalent to FGM but it is obviously in the same sphere.

I'm not prepared to see it banned. I do want active campaigning by those Jewish and Muslim people who don't circumcise to raise the profile of choosing not to do it. I don't think an unenforced law, which is what you will get, will do a lot to stop it.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:15

but it is obviously in the same sphere.

It isn't. Not by a long shot.

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 01/11/2015 22:15

I don't think circumcision is as devastating as FGM but I would vote for a ban because a baby cannot give informed consent. TBH I'd ban piercing infants' ears as well.

BertrandRussell · 01/11/2015 22:15

But there is no comparison between infant male circumcision, and FGM. Both are wrong. But the impact of FGM on girls and women is on a different scale.

UncertainSmile · 01/11/2015 22:17

'About on a par with ear piercing'?

Moronic thing to say.
Also, some men don't. Some men have complications; and as it is a pointless surgical procedure and traumatising, then why not abolish it except in case of medical need.

UncertainSmile · 01/11/2015 22:18

And what's going on with all this whattaboutery bullshit. Just because it isn't FGM, doesn't mean it's ok.

annandale · 01/11/2015 22:19

Well I believe it is. There is an obvious relationship between two types of culturally imposed genital cutting. The impact is very different. There is apparently a form of FGM which sounds much more like male circumcision but I don't think it is common.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:20

Just because it isn't FGM, doesn't mean it's ok.

Nobody said it was.

AnyFucker · 01/11/2015 22:22

Yes, I would. I believe it should be done for medical reasons only

I don't agree it is comparable to FGM though. Overstating the case will not attract any more support.

Branleuse · 01/11/2015 22:22

Any change needs to come from the cultures that actually practice it. Ie the jewish and muslim communities. Not from a bunch of middle class white handwringers.

VashtaNerada · 01/11/2015 22:23

Male circumcision is certainly wrong when it's not a medical necessity but (as other posters have said) it's really important we don't imply it's on a par with FGM which really is so much more horrific. I'll have a look at the petition now though!

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:23

Moronic thing to say.

I think you need to calm down a bit. I could see your blood pressure rising just reading that post.

Also, some men don't. Some men have complications; and as it is a pointless surgical procedure and traumatising, then why not abolish it except in case of medical need.

I'm willing to bet that is very rare. From what I understand, infant male circumcision is quite common place in the states and I would say the majority of American men lead entirely normal lives.

UncertainSmile · 01/11/2015 22:25

Any change needs to come from the cultures that actually practice it. Ie the jewish and muslim communities. Not from a bunch of middle class white handwringers.

That could be an argument against all kinds of horrific cultural practices; 'it's none of our business what they do'. It's the kind of Moral Relativism shite that led to Rotherham.

UncertainSmile · 01/11/2015 22:26

I think you need to calm down a bit. I could see your blood pressure rising just reading that post.

Don't be so fucking patronising.

VashtaNerada · 01/11/2015 22:28

DH is circumcised btw and there's absolutely no way he'd allow that to happen to DS unless it really was an absolute necessity for health reasons. I think many men feel this way, it's just not really discussed.

However... the wording of the petition has pissed me off a bit. Of course FGM is seen as worse by law, it's nothing to do with male genitalia not being valued as much. FGM is a much more severe form of abuse. I think a more sensibly worded petition might get more support.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:29

Ear piercing is certainly not a medical necessity. It is painful and has the risk of complications.

By other posters admissions on this thread, circumcision is also painful and is not a medical necessity. It also has the risk of complications.

I can kind of see where bran is coming from with that comparison.

However please feel free to come back with some childish insults and name calling for me just because you disagree with me Wink.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:29

Never mind, you're already there Wink.

AskBasil · 01/11/2015 22:39

"Any change needs to come from the cultures that actually practice it. Ie the jewish and muslim communities. Not from a bunch of middle class white handwringers."

Well in the USA, lots of white middle class handwringers as you call them, practice it. It's very common there, almost universal.

I agree that pretending it's like FGM is bollocks; it's nowhere near as debilitating or threatening to health and happiness, but neither is ear-piercing and I don't think people should do that to their babies either. Just stop piercing and cutting babies, FFS, leave them alone and whole and if they want to lop bits off themselves or put holes in themselves when they're old enough to have a view on it, fine, let them decide.

It's also simply not accurate to pretend that circumcision is just like ear piercing; it affects sexual sensitivity as it cuts off nerves. Ask men who have been circumcised in adulthood, they'll tell you there is a definite permanent loss of sensation which I suppose if you had it done when you're a baby, you'd be unaware of. But why not give men that choice, rather than choose it for them?

NinjaLeprechaun · 01/11/2015 22:39

"we do not liken haircuts to decapitation, so why is FGM and male circumcision talked about in the same sentance or same topic."
Hair grows back, foreskins don't. Would you voluntarily cut off your child's ear for no reason because it's not as bad as decapitation?

"Men who are circumcised live entirely normal lives."
Except the ones who die don't, of course.

Male genital mutilation (because that's what it is) should not be excused or allowed because female genital mutilation is worse. In my mind that's akin to excusing rape because at least it's not murder.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 01/11/2015 22:42

Male genital mutilation (because that's what it is) should not be excused or allowed because female genital mutilation is worse.

Nobody is saying it should.

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