Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
samG76 · 05/11/2015 13:24

BertrandRussell -

"carried out by weak-minded individuals"

"people are stupid"

This sounds like an attack on the Jewish community as a whole. As pointed out above, Jewish people have better economic, health and educational life chances than pretty much any ethnic group in the UK. If they are weak minded/stupid, etc I wonder what it makes everyone else.

Of course, we know it is not anti-semitism because you've told us. This is a bit like the "I'm not racist, but....." that precedes many obviously idiotic statements.

Devora · 05/11/2015 13:27

I think you've just ignored all the evidence I gave you, BertrandRussell. If calling people stupid, weak-minded, bonkers and child abusers isn't attacking the person rather than the practice, then I don't know what is.

BertrandRussell · 05/11/2015 13:43

It becomes completely impossible to talk about this subject when any challenge or query is labelled anti semitism. I feel incredibly strongly that infant circumcision is immoral, wrong and deeply uncivilised. But I am not allowed to say that because it will label me anti Semitic. This is just wrong. People must speak out for the babies at the centre of this.

GColdtimer · 05/11/2015 13:51

I totally take issue with the accusation that because I don't agree with circumsision I am anti-semetic. I don't agree with the practice, I honestly don't care who is doing it, I have just as much of an issue with Christian americans who do it because its "cleaner" as I do with Jewish people doing it for cultural reasons. It doesn't make the act any different in my eyes.

To be fair Sam, you are the first poster that has attempted to explain the importance of it, so I appreciate that. I find it actually very sad that your whole identify and culture has to be defined by this one act. That you can't be a part of the community unless you have removed part of your child's genitals and will be effectively shunned if you don't. And I have read lots of accounts of Jewish people who haven't done it and still feel Jewish and still feel part of their community. No point sharing them though because you are likely to just dimiss them as you did the groups I shared here.

This reasoning by the way is also the same reasoning that is used by people defending FGM. Why mothers who have experienced the torture for themselves hold down their girls to be tortured all over again. Because if they are don't they will be shunned by their communities. What a fucked up world we live in.

Once again I am glad I am not religious. What terrible power religion has over people's lifes.

LumelaMme · 05/11/2015 13:55

I feel incredibly strongly that infant circumcision is immoral, wrong and deeply uncivilised. But I am not allowed to say that because it will label me anti Semitic.
Oh, rubbish. It's not saying that circumcision is immoral that gets someone labelled an anti-semite, it's typifying ALL parents who circumcise their DC as 'uncivilised barbarians' - including, one had to assume when reading that comment, the ones who do it for religious reasons. It's a bit late to start saying that you 'understand why people do it for religious reasons' when you've already dismissed those same people as 'uncivilised barbarians' further upthread.

Devora · 05/11/2015 13:57

No, you are completely allowed to say you think infant circumcision is immoral and wrong. I have repeatedly said that I don't think that opinion it anti-semitic. I'm resigned that I am against the tide of MN on this issue (and possibly on the wrong side of history). I posted early on this thread and I wasn't accusing anyone of antisemitism. I think I was 8 posts in before I mentioned it, and that was in response to someone talking about 'crying antisemitism'.

This is a serious subject and deserves serious discussion, not just slagging off whole communities as idiots and abusers. I absolutely do not think that opposing circumcision per se makes someone anti-semitic, and I have been completely courteous to you. Equally, though, when you have thread after thread in which posters line up to insult an ethnic community, the question of how to take the issue forward without stirring up racial tensions has to be part of the discussion. I think I deserve to make those points without being dismissed with, "It becomes completely impossible to talk about this subject when any challenge or query is labelled as anti semitism". Quite clearly, from the popularity of these threads, people are finding it very easy to talk about the subject. If, however, they are serious about creating constructive change, rather than just having an internet rant, they are not going to have to deal with the issues I and others have raised.

Devora · 05/11/2015 13:58

I totally take issue with the accusation that because I don't agree with circumsision I am anti-semetic.

Who said this, twofalls?

samG76 · 05/11/2015 14:35

Twofalls - this is the issue. You have "read lots of accounts of Jewish people who haven't done it". This is what the internet does - it magnifies outliers and makes them seem like the norm. You've no idea what community they are part of or whether they are even telling the truth. Ditto with my story about an Imam who runs a pub.

I'm at the coal face, and along with other posters who know what they are talking about I can tell you that there is no flourishing community of Jews who don't have a brit. And while I appreciate your sympathy, though find it extremely patronising, there are plenty of groups in the UK who are doing a lot worse than the Jewish community and are more deserving of your pity.

And bear in mind that I've not accused anyone of anti-semitism on this thread.

GColdtimer · 05/11/2015 16:00

I don't think anyone has said it to be personally Devora, I felt this comment was somewhat vieled: "Of course, we know it is not anti-semitism because you've told us. This is a bit like the "I'm not racist, but....." that precedes many obviously idiotic statements." but perhaps I was being overly sensitive.

It would be interesting to ask how many people would still circumcise their sons if there was no pressure from the community. If the community left it up to parents to decide with no judgement of their committment, or lack of, to the faith.

I suppose I am generally untrusting of religions that make people adhere to certain customs, otherwise they are cast out from their communities. That is where I think the comparison to FGM is a valid one. You are removing something from a child's body which is not medically necessary, to adhere to your communities rules.

samG76 · 05/11/2015 16:02

Marvellous marvous - as for brit shalom, I've never heard of one happening in the UK, but here is a report from California, which as you can imagine is at the center of "wackiness" in terms of religious ideas.

Ungar-Sargon, who has called circumcision “physically harmful, medically irresponsible and morally wrong,” said that an alternative to Jewish ritual circumcision, or brit milah, was “a great idea” — albeit one whose time has clearly not yet come.

“Calling it a marginal phenomenon would be generous,” he said.
A survey of Jewish ritual circumcisers and brit shalom “celebrants” working in and around Los Angeles confirms Ungar-Sargon’s impression.

Interviews with 12 of the 22 Jewish ritual circumcisers currently practicing in the greater Los Angeles area found they had collectively performed approximately 1,400 traditional Jewish circumcisions in 2010.

By contrast, there are just five known brit shalom celebrants in Southern California. Of the four who could be reached for this article, two had never performed the ceremony.

The third, Rosalie Gottfried, a secular humanist madricha (Hebrew for leader), estimated she had done six in the past decade, and always for parents opposed to circumcision.

The fourth, Hershl Hartman, is the secular Jewish vegvayzer (Yiddish for leader) of the Sholem Community in Los Angeles. He has been naming — without circumcising — Jewish baby boys since the mid-1980s, “several dozen” in all, at a rate of about five every year.

That annual number, however, includes both girls and boys — which is appropriate because secular Jewish leaders like Hartman, who were among the earliest proponents of non-cutting naming ceremonies for Jewish baby boys, were motivated not by opposition to circumcision but by a commitment to egalitarianism.

Tiggeryoubastard · 05/11/2015 17:30

I was always led to believe that one of the basic tenets of religion was free will. Cutting bits of a baby off goes totally against that, as does the peer pressure mentioned above. Surely for it to mean something, it should be a decision to have something made by yourself as a consenting person of an age to actually understand and consent. Doing it to babies with no say in the matter seems illogical from that viewpoint, as well as unnecessary and cruel.

Tiggeryoubastard · 05/11/2015 17:31

*a decision to have something removed made by yourself
Sorry, left half a sentence out there.

samG76 · 05/11/2015 17:57

Tigger - when you were led to believe it, was this on some advanced theology or philosophy degree, or year 5 RE? You are making the common mistake of assuming that all religions are the same as the CoE. Islam and Judaism certainly aren't - I can't speak of any of the others.

NB - you will note that I have admitted I don't know something about another faith. This is of course contrary to the normal MN approach of googling it, reading the first answer, and then claiming to be an exert in the field.

fakenamefornow · 05/11/2015 18:05

I have a question for the posters circumcising for religious reasons, who are saying that they, and their child would be shunned by their community if they did not cut their baby. Does this mean that you would also shun a family who didn't cut and not allow them to remain a member of your community, not allow your child to marry theirs etc? Even if this was the only practice or tradition they didn't observe?

samG76 · 05/11/2015 18:14

fake - it's a theoretical question only, because in real life, rather than MN world, people would leave the community and maybe join some progressive or humanist group. No-one would keep other practices or be observant apart from the brit. It just wouldn't happen.

CainInThePunting · 05/11/2015 18:15

When DS was about 9 he had an issue with his penis, his foreskin was very tight and he had problems peeing and was getting very uncomfortable infections.
I was given the option to have him circumcised or he could try to stretch it himself which is the option we chose.
Even at 9 I didn't feel that having his foreskin removed was a decision he could or should make especially after reading up on the Internet of the experiences and opinions of men, who had been circumcised. It appears to cause a fair bit of trauma.

I will sign the petition.

BertrandRussell · 05/11/2015 18:21

Sam- are you saying that you would have to leave your community if you decided not to have a brit for your sons? Actually physically leave? Or would you just be left out of everything? Do you keep all the other laws as strictly?

Bigbiscuits · 05/11/2015 18:24

I would not shun and I don't think I would have been shunned if we had not done it.

But as I said earlier. This is often the very last practice that Jews give up. however secular and assimilated, they will still circumcise.

So once this is given up, there is not much association with Jewish things left and you are likely to assimilate and drift away of your own accord.

LynetteScavo · 05/11/2015 18:25

Hmmm.....I've known quite a few circumcised people (adults and children). All were circumcised as babies. The majority for cultural reasons, rather than religious.

I would never have had my own baby boys circumcised. I am very uncomfortable with it. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as insisting no one else was allowed to do it. Banning it in the UK would of course lead it to go under ground, or abroad.

samG76 · 05/11/2015 18:28

BR - I don't know - it's never happened. I suppose the Rabbi would have a word with you and tell you to sort things out, on pain of being excluded from everything and your membership not being renewed. But you wouldn't move home. It's not a commune. The Rabbi would similarly have words if you were seen having a quarterpounder in McD's.

fakenamefornow · 05/11/2015 18:33

It just seems people are implying that cutting people out of a community for this is the right thing to do. Nobody seems to be challenging the shunning and saying it shouldn't happen. I know nobody has explicitly said they would support shunning but that is the feeling I'm getting.

fakenamefornow · 05/11/2015 18:35

And would you support the Rabbi in excluding them do you think this would be right?

BertrandRussell · 05/11/2015 18:39

Sam- do you keep a kosher home?

annandale · 05/11/2015 18:43

I think the shunning would be more internal wouldn't it? I do know a Jewish family who have not had a Brit (sorry, is it bris?) but they don't particularly keep kosher, they don't fast or go to shul and they live somewhere very like Ambridge so there isn't a big Jewish community. I don't think not circumcising led them to this life, but perhaps it is part of their separation from a Jewish community.

GColdtimer · 05/11/2015 18:57

Sam, its not a theoretical question, there are Jewish people still very much imbedded into their communities that choose not to do it. And from what I have been reading its a hard and isolating decision but one for the most part people are glad they made. I won't bother linking because you will just dismiss these people, or just dismiss me for doing a "quick google and believing the first thing I read".

However, this is an interesting article discussing this issue:

www.haaretz.com/israel-news/even-in-israel-more-and-more-parents-choose-not-to-circumcise-their-sons-1.436421

I have to say I hadn't realised quite how totally ingrained it was in to identity and culture so thank you for opening my eyes. I have done a lot of reading over the last few days and I think I understand more than I did. That's not to say I am any less opposed to it at all, but I can understand the pressure people feel under to conform.

Once again, I am so glad I am not religious and am free to make my own choices.

Swipe left for the next trending thread