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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 21:09

Sir - Read that study I linked to. It is from London, England. Not a place with no clean water & soap.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 21:12

"And truly, calling people, many of whom belong to one or other of two religions, 'uncivilised barbarians' is really not going to help this debate along at all."

So what do you call people who perform unnecessary surgery on someone unable to consent? What would you call someone who said their God demands that the very tip of every baby's ear, or little finger or toe was cut off? I bet everyone would be up in arms then. Imagine that infant circumcision was q new thing. A newly formed religion demand it, hat would happen then?

SirChenjin · 02/11/2015 21:14

Cote - that article is 15 years old. Links to systematic reviews/meta analysis from the last couple of years in the UK/developed countries that have been critically appraised for non-bias?

SirChenjin · 02/11/2015 21:16

You could also argue that not having breasts or ovaries reduces the risk of breast and ovarian neoplasms - but we don't recommend their removal 'in case'

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 21:25

Sir - It's a study, not an article. If you read through it, you can make your own judgement about where there is a bias. I don't quite see how, as it is based on observations of men with all those conditions who are treated in the Department of Dermatology, Imperial College School of Medicine, Chelsea & Westminster Hospital, London, England.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 21:26

"You could also argue that not having breasts or ovaries reduces the risk of breast and ovarian neoplasms"

Not comparable at all. We are not taking about whether removing the foreskin reduces infection and non-infectious conditions on the foreskin.

SirChenjin · 02/11/2015 22:01

I did read it Cote - and as I explained I'm looking for more than a study which is 15 years old.

As for not comparable - of course it is. We're talking about reducing risk, which is the purpose of circumcision (as well as the more bonkers religious stuff obv)

NinjaLeprechaun · 02/11/2015 22:04

"it seems safe and leads to no problems for the vast majority"
"For the vast majority" - So, how many baby boys have to die in any given year due to an unneeded surgical procedure before you consider it an unacceptable risk? More than 100?

CardinalPoint · 03/11/2015 01:19

It has a range of benefits in countries where water, soap and condoms are not readily available

... probably best to avoid unecessary surgery in such countries though.

Leelu6 · 03/11/2015 05:47

SirChenJin

A 15 year old study is very recent IMO.

It's unreasonable to expect a study in the last 2 years. They need to be funded and funding doesn't come easily.

15 years ago, science was almost as advanced as today.

SirChenjin · 03/11/2015 08:02

I disagree - there are actually more recent robust papers on the subject from a very quick search I just did. It depends on the search parameters also - Cote, what it is you're trying to prove and then we can work from there to identify the best evidence?

Bambambini · 03/11/2015 14:01

No i wont sign it though i'd like to see it questioned more and die out. Most posting here in outrage would be circumcising their own sons if they happened to be born jewish, muslim or possibly born in the states - and you'd probably think nothing of it and plan your party/ celebration. Talk about it and encourage dialogue by all means but to sneer and call people barbaric and uncivilsed just because of where or what religion/community they were born into is very arrogant.

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2015 14:42

"there are actually more recent robust papers on the subject from a very quick search I just did"

Why don't you share them with us, then? Let's all see if men's susceptibility to non-contagious genital conditions in London has significantly changed in the last 15 years.

Bambambini · 03/11/2015 15:48

Cote, i was in Turkey this year and saw a cavalcade driving through the town with a boy standing through the sunroof in his "prince outfit". Thought it was some kind of bamitzvah or such for muslims. Didn't realise he was off to get circumcised.

SirChenjin · 03/11/2015 17:21

Cote - what is it you're trying to demonstrate with that study? What are you setting it against?

LumelaMme · 03/11/2015 18:58

So what do you call people who perform unnecessary surgery on someone unable to consent?
Well, in my case, my PIL. Neither barbarians nor uncivilised. Inflammatory language doesn't move debates forward: it just entrenches people in their views and makes them think that those throwing out the insults are rude and can't find logical arguments to back up their assertions.

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2015 19:52

"Cote - what is it you're trying to demonstrate with that study?"

I have lost hope that you will understand. Don't worry about it.

Trills · 03/11/2015 19:58

I agree with the premise but I am not really impressed with the wording - the focus on FGM is too high up in the petition.

Bringing up FGM makes male circumcision look small and unimportant, when it isn't.

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2015 20:03

"saw a cavalcade driving through the town with a boy standing through the sunroof in his "prince outfit""

Yes, that's a boy who would be circumcised in a couple of hours. Presumably he knew what would happen (because his friends & older brothers, cousins etc would have told him if not his parents). So does that solve the consent issue? Personally, I don't see any difference between the parents giving consent and a 6-year-old giving consent. What if a boy this age comes home demanding for it to be done? (As did the DS of a MNers who told me about it yesterday in a PM).

VulcanWoman · 03/11/2015 20:08
Confused
angelos02 · 03/11/2015 20:09

I just can't get my head around physically harming a child. That is all.

CoteDAzur · 03/11/2015 20:13

If it was actually harming, do you really think men in some of the most male dominant places on Earth would continue to do it to their sons? Don't make me laugh. It wouldn't even last a single generation.

CherryPicking · 03/11/2015 20:25

People use religion as a front for all kinds of sadistic behaviour. So getting angry about people cutting babies makes me antisemitic?? No it fucking well doesn't - it makes me anti cutting babies. Because cutting babies is undeniably wrong. (Barring a valid medical reason, in which case I'd expect sufficient anaesthetic and a proper operating theatre and qualified surgeon. And proper after care.

SirChenjin · 03/11/2015 20:28

I am not worried about it, rest assured.

Isn't it amazing what religious fervour will do to men? That they can be persuaded to lob off bits of their penis in order to demonstrate their loyalty to the cause and their group must be applauded, if nothing else.

I wonder what would happen if a cult tried that today? Actually, strike that - I don't wonder at all, it's obvious.

CherryPicking · 03/11/2015 20:33

sirchenjin I wonder whether cutting off a child's foreskin is the wisest thing to do in a country with little soap or water? Or presumably antibiotics?

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