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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 17:38

Yes of course I do, please don't patrionise me and where did I say the plural of anecode was data?

When a number of people say they had more sexual pleasure before being circumsiced than after then that is anecdotal evidence. I haven't disputed the scienfitic studies have I? Just that for some people, they experienced a loss of sensation after the procedure.

But in all honesty, that is not my main objection. Its this:

I am against removing part of a child's genitals where there is no medical necessity.

samG76 · 04/11/2015 18:39

Twofalls - I think jews against circ is a band of 3 rather sad men and a dog. Of course, they are at Liberty not to have a Brit for their own sons, but a lot of their stories sound like trying to blame their Brit for their life going wrong as an alternative to taking personal responsibility.

AskBasil · 04/11/2015 19:03

"Look, it's natural for any mum, no matter how religious she is, to feel uncomfortable just before the brit. But with anaesthetic and an experienced mohel, it's all over in seconds and the baby is fine. I've never met anyone who remembers pain at a week old."

What I hear is: "Look, it's natural for women to instinctively know that cutting bits of their babies off for no good reason, is horrendous. But patriarchal religion does a really good job of ensuring our instincts to protect our children are overridden and our horror is minimised. It pats us on the head and comforts us with assurances that patriarchal tradition is more valid than our instincts as mothers."

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2015 19:14

We can argue til the cows come home about the benefits/disbenefits of infant circumcision. It's all a massive smokescreen anyway- most circumcisions in this country are for religious reasons.

The issue is that it is wrong to perform unnecessary surgery on a passion who is unable to consent. It is impossible to argue with that.

UncertainSmile · 04/11/2015 19:14

How quickly people cry anti-semetism

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2015 19:15

Person, not passion, obviously.

BusShelter · 04/11/2015 20:27

This thread has got very bunfight'y.Confused
I was going to sign as I disagree with the principal of doing non medically required things things to other people without their permission but I've changed my mind as i don't think it's as big an issue as some posters are making it out to be. IYSWIM.

As an atheist I find it a bizarre thing to do but I don't suppose it makes any odds to me.
I wish everyone in the world, religious or not would just concentrate on good and kind to everyone else.

I know that will never happen but I can dream.

BusShelter · 04/11/2015 20:28

Btw - I think this thread is going to end up getting deleted. It's probably not a bad thing.

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2015 21:14

Why on earth would it be deleted? Hmm

MarvellousMarv · 04/11/2015 21:21

It seems very patronizing and dismissive to discount Jews Against Cirumcision as 'sad' and with fucked up lives. Do you know this for a fact? The list of Bris Shalom celebrants looks happy enough.

The petition is for a debate. I actually wonder whether it is good (from a non circumcision position) to call for a debate right now. I don't think the public opinion is strong against it as it still seems so normal in non-religious circles. And people generally take a live and let live view of customs that don't affect them, and seem not unusual in wider society. I see fierce opposition to circumcision on MN but in RL people say 'I wouldn't do it, no way ' but don't get rxcercised about Jews, Muslims or Americans doing it.

No way will the government ban circumcision in the current climate. They would fear, at best, a revolt by moderate Muslims, and at worst a full scale Jihad and sending people into the arms of Isis.

So what would a debate now achieve? A result that looks like governmental affirmation or protection of circumcision.

BusShelter · 04/11/2015 21:39

I think it might get deleted because of accusations of anti semitism.

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2015 21:41

It must be really crap to have to do something to your child that you just must know at some level is illogical and wrong. Even thought you really feel you have to do it. Most of us feel pretty rubbish about taking them for inoculations- and there are really good reasons for doing that. No wonder people are dismissive of alternative points of view and come up with all the pseudoscience- what else can they do?

BusShelter · 04/11/2015 22:01

I agree Bertrand. I really try to understand but it seems such an odd thing to do. Feasts and festivals I can easily relate to Wink I can understand why people pray. I can even understand why people fast but chopping off babies foreskins seems a strange thing to do.

You would think religion would be more to do with who you are on the inside rather than what you look like.

Devora · 04/11/2015 22:37

It's not about what you look like! It's a promise to God! Even if you're not religious, can you really not get what a big deal that is?

Honestly, hundreds of posts saying, "I can't understand why people do this". Wouldn't it be a more interesting thread if people tried to understand, even without condoning?

I have no problem with people feeling vehemently opposed to circumcision. But the determination with which people are just slagging off two major world faiths, and their adherents, as ignorant primitive child abusers is very depressing.

Devora · 04/11/2015 22:38

How quickly people cry anti-semetism

Actually, I think it's amazing how little people have cried anti-semitism on this thread. Not without provocation.

May09Bump · 04/11/2015 22:44

Signed plus DH also signed.

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2015 22:52

Nobody has been anti Semitic on this thread. People have been anti performing unnecessary surgery on people unable to consent. But that is an entirely different thing.

samG76 · 04/11/2015 23:02

Bertrandrussell - I've not made any accusations of anti-semitism, but I wonder what gives you the right to judge that there has been none on this thread. Isnt that like me opining that there have been no homophobic comments on an LGBT thread?

BusShelter · 05/11/2015 00:55

Devorra
It's not about what you look like! It's a promise to God! Even if you're not religious, can you really not get what a big deal that is?

Honestly, I'm trying but I can't. I don't understand why that promise would be made and why it would be so important. Wouldn't a promise to do something charitable or something else that doesn't involve a baby who can't give consent be more meaningful.

BTW I haven't slagged off any religion, that would be a horrible and disrespectful thing to do.

samG76 · 05/11/2015 09:57

Busshelter - I'll try to put it in non-religious terms. My family is Jewish. We enjoy being Jewish, and I think it gives the kids a sense of identity and morality which, while occasionally flawed, is what a lot of people lack. We have a nice community, and I think that the locality benefits from the diversity of having us, just as it does from other faith and ethnic communities

If we had not had a brit for my DS's, we wouldn't be part of the community. We would assimilate, and within a couple of generations our descendants would be saying "oh, yeah, I think I've got Jewish ancestry on my mum's side" (or whatever). Whether or not this should be the case, it is. There's just aren't communities around that have dispensed with the brit and carried on in a sustainable fashion. And don't bother googling to find that there is some community in Sweden where the rate is only 50%. These are communities that are dying out, an probably can't even muster a quorum for a service on a Saturday afternoon.

So having a brit is, empirically, tied up with Jewish continuity, which is why even those who don't consider themselves religious in the conventional sense might go ahead with it.

Devora · 05/11/2015 12:34

It's not meant to be something small, like giving money to charity (though Jewish law requires that too); it's meant to be a big deal, that you do to show how deeply committed you are to God.

And, as sam says, it's about being part of the Jewish community. Look, it's important enough so that baby boys born in Nazi Germany had it done, even though it made them identifiable. Because no matter what shit is raining on your head, this is your covenant with God.

You may not 'get' that, in that it isn't a deal you personally would make. But I do think people should acknowledge that it is a huge deal, not dismiss it as ridiculous. I would have less problems with a thread where people were saying, We understand what a huge deal this is for the Jewish community, but there is a bottom line principle here that we do not cut bits off children. How do we balance religious freedom with children's rights in a modern, multicultural society? That might be a useful discussion.

BertrandRussell · 05/11/2015 12:37

We understand what a huge deal this is for the Jewish community, but there is a bottom line principle here that we do not cut bits off children."

I thought that's what people were saying.

Devora · 05/11/2015 12:53

No. It's not. Poster after poster has ridiculed or demonised the Jewish community. A small selection:

"Fucking hell people are stupid"

"A disgusting unnecessary practice carried out by weak-minded individuals"

"I don't know why anyone would do this"

"It is a ridiculous thing to do"

"Religion is in your heart, not in your penis"

"It's about encouraging people to move with the times"

"Child abuse"

"Bonkers"

All of which conveys the message that this is a community full of stupid, weak, evil people. None of which implies understanding of why it happens - or indeed any desire to understand.

BertrandRussell · 05/11/2015 13:15

No. They have ridiculed and demonised one particular practice of the Jewish people. I find the practice of infant circumcision utterly repugnant. However I understand why people do it for religious reasons. I reserve my contempt for the people who try to justify it on medical or hygiene grounds

Bambambini · 05/11/2015 13:17

You missed "uncivilised barbarians" - unless it was all just a dream.

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