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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
samG76 · 04/11/2015 12:15

Ninja - This is sort of thing that happens in MN world but never actually in the real world.

Did I tell you I know an Imam who runs a pub? And it does whole hog roasts as well! And lots of religious Muslims and Jews go there for Xmas and join in. I suppose their congregants and family think it's a bit odd but they do it nonetheless. And he donates the profits to charity.

NinjaLeprechaun · 04/11/2015 12:22

"Ninja - This is sort of thing that happens in MN world but never actually in the real world."
You don't actually think we're all tiny people living inside your computer, do you? Confused I assure you that I do live entirely in the "real world".

SirChenjin · 04/11/2015 13:02

after a chat with mates, it's also much more enjoyable in sex

Interesting. How exactly did you measure that, presuming that you weren't having sex at 12? Grin Or measure comparisons?

I'm also curious - your son didn't cry at all when he was held by an adult and his foreskin was cut off? My goodness, that's a medical miracle! Unless of course local anaesthetic was used (I presume he cried while that was administered, it's bloody sore) or he went into shock, which rendered him incapable of crying. Or you're lying.

samG76 · 04/11/2015 13:31

Ninja - you may live in the real world, stories often lose something in the telling, so a family of complete outliers becomes part of the community then "religious" and then orthodox.

Here's a proposal. I have family in BC and Ontario and know people in most cities in Canada with a Jewish population. Presumably if this family keeps kosher, they will be part of an orthodox community. If you PM me the details of the community, I'm pretty sure I can find out the details. This kosher keeping orthodox uncircumcised family will no doubt be quite notorious locally. If the story checks out, I promise to come onto MN and admit that my scepticism was unfounded.

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 13:31

I have twin boys.

They had a topical aneatheic cream.

Neither cried.

Atenco · 04/11/2015 13:39

Ninja, a couple of people choose to ignore one of the significant precepts of their religion, and that proves what exactly?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims and I don't know how many millions of Jews for whom this is an essential part of their religion. You may not like it and would not choose to do it to any child of yours, but in the grand scheme of things circumcision is not a big deal compared to outlawing two of the world's largest religions.

SirChenjin · 04/11/2015 13:41

Why do you think that was? You might want to do some research into why some babies don't cry during circumcision - it's very interesting (as well as nauseating)

BusShelter · 04/11/2015 13:48

I still can't get to grips with the fact that circumcision is done to someone else without their permission. I don't think it's a 'horrendous' thing to do at all and I'm sure there may be some advantages but it's the basic fact that it's done without consent?
Yes I know parents decide things for their children all the time but that's for things that can't be left to do later.

Wouldn't it mean more to the religion/God if the individual wanted to do it themselves.

Parents don't own their children.

I know a lot of adults who don't follow thier parents religions - isn't it wrong to assume for sure that your child will grow up to follow your religion. It seems old fashioned and autocratic.

MoriartyIsMyAngel · 04/11/2015 13:54

A YouTuber I watch gave an update on her baby son a few weeks after his birth. She said he was an angel, never cried, except when his diaper was changed because of his circumcision. So it's not just the initial procedure, the discomfort would remain for a while.

My usual argument for the 'But they'll forget the pain' types is to suggest you do whatever you feel like to your newborn then. They'll forget. Ever wanted to smash a baby's toes with a hammer? Go ahead, he won't remember!

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 14:00

You see, this is why Jews and Muslims don't join these threads.

Because now the "debate" has moved onto smashing a babies toes with a hammer. Lovely b

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 14:02

I was there.

They did not cry because they had a topical anaesthetic administered by a GP (who also does these procedures).

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 14:04

I know what's next.

Why don't you put an anaesthetic cream on your babies toes and then smash them with a hammer.

BumWad · 04/11/2015 14:15

Wooopeeedidoo! 10 pages and only 135 votes!

SirChenjin please post the recent articles you looked at?

NinjaLeprechaun · 04/11/2015 14:30

No, sam I will not PM you somebody else's personal information. They haven't lived in the same province the (now adult) children were born in for nearly 30 years, they were not raised there, so I'm not sure how useful you would find it anyway.
The people in question are family, I have stayed at their home, and I assure you that they are what I say they are. One of the sons in question also spent time living in Israel in his late teens or early 20s, I have no idea if the status of his penis was a topic of general conversation there either.

Atenco I'm not trying to "prove" anything. It was suggested that the question be put to Mumsnetters to see if anybody actually knew a Jewish family that didn't circumcise their sons... and I do. Only apparently I couldn't possibly, because of reasons.

Bigbiscuits · 04/11/2015 14:36

Only 135 signatures. Wow.

OP, you know it would be really easy to quickly up that figure. Just post a link on the Britain First Facebook group. I am sure the number would skyrocket.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 14:59

friedorboiled, so at 12 you wouldn't wish it on anyone, but then you did it to your son? Why do you think it would hurt a baby any less that a 12 year old? And whilst you may not feel mutilated, there are plenty of Jewish men who do (although apparently they don't matter because they are in the minority).

Anyway, lots of information here about Jews who are turning their back on circumcision. Clue is in the name:
www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

NinjaLeprechaun · 04/11/2015 15:02

And I know we're not making comparisons to FGM, but it is interesting to me that some of the arguments being used in defense of circumcision on this thread are - nearly word for word in some cases - the same arguments used to defend FGM in cultures where it's practiced.

friedorboiled · 04/11/2015 15:30

Twofalls

You didn't read the rest of my post. I wouldn't wish a circumcision on any boy AT THE AGE OF 12. As a baby, no problem if done by a mohel.

By the way, how many of you have been to a Jewish circumcision? And talked to the men later in life?
Look, it's natural for any mum, no matter how religious she is, to feel uncomfortable just before the brit. But with anaesthetic and an experienced mohel, it's all over in seconds and the baby is fine. I've never met anyone who remembers pain at a week old.

If it's about pain, maybe you should ban childbirth. Pulled out by forceps? That must hurt.

As for the earlier comment why aren't there many Jews and Muslims on these threads... it's fairly fucking obvious. They get shouted down.

There should be a thread just for Jews.

And one for all of you who hate them and their practices.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 16:13

I don't hate Jews or their practices. Please don't turn this into something its not.

Let me put it very simply:

I am against removing part of a child's genitals where there is no medical necessity.

To comment on your other points - why would a baby feel less pain? And just because they can't remember why does this make it acceptable?

Childbirth is necessary, forceps deliveries are often necessary (and if they are not they shouldn't be done either). If this is the only argument you can come up with you are scraping the bottom of the barrell!

How do you feel about the "Jews against circumsision" groups?

BumWad · 04/11/2015 16:14

Big it's gone down to 134! ConfusedGrin

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2015 16:22

I don't hate Jews or their practices. I hate one particular practice- that which involves performing non medically required surgery on someone unable to consent. To try to make this an anti Semitic issue is a a common, but completely unacceptable silencing tactic.

Iwantakitchen · 04/11/2015 16:22

I simply don't agree with the argument that female circumcision is the same, similar, the same thing as male circumcision. It's not. I've never heard of a girl having a circumcision for medical reasons. Yes circumcision will affect a man's sexual life, but not to the same extent or in the same way that a female circumcision will affect her life/health/sex life/child birth, constant pain, etc. I don't agree with male or female circumcision (without medical reasons) but I wouldn't put them both in the same 'group'.

BumWad · 04/11/2015 16:33

"Yes circumcision will affect a man's sexual life.."

But research and studies show that this is not the case.

GColdtimer · 04/11/2015 16:42

But lots of anecodotal evidence from people who have been circumcised who refute that (my DH included). Again, perhaps they are a minority (and therefore don't matter).

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2015 17:21

Plural of anecdote is not data.

Quite a few people believe homeopathy has worked for them.

Do you know what a scientific study is and how it differs from a coupe of anecdotes?

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