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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 02/11/2015 10:38

All that needs to be said is that it should be illegal to perform non medically essential surgery on someone who is too young to consent.

I agree 100%.

I haven't read a single argument yet, that's made me think otherwise.

As a PP said, if anyone wants to make some sort of 'sacrifice' they can do it by cutting bits off of themselves - not innocent kids who are too young to consent.

KittyandSqueal · 02/11/2015 10:39

I presume it would still be legal for medical reasons? My dh is circumcised, although he doesn't know why and his parents have never told him apparently his db is not and pil are neither Jewish not Muslim so I assume it's medical rather than religious. (I imagine if it were a 'choice' both the boy would have had it done.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 02/11/2015 10:44

I do think male circumcision should be a matter of parental choice not banned outright.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 10:56

"I actually disagree and think conparing male circumcision to FGM potentially undermines the seriousness of FGM"
I agree.

"Male circumcision has some pros and some cons. I wouldn't do it to my DS without medical grounds but can see it's not as clear cut as all that"

What are the pros?

samG76 · 02/11/2015 11:02

Hmm, at a time when the govt is trying to persuade Muslims that it is not against the religion as a whole, just the radical political element, and the Jewish community is concerned about anti-semitism in public life, I'm pretty sure this petition will be filed in the circular filing drawer....

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 11:11

"Hmm, at a time when the govt is trying to persuade Muslims that it is not against the religion as a whole, just the radical political element, and the Jewish community is concerned about anti-semitism in public life, I'm pretty sure this petition will be filed in the circular filing drawer...."

Yes, the power of the religious lobby is pretty disgusting, I agree.

StealthPolarBear · 02/11/2015 11:13

Agree with Mrs tp. I think this is barbaric and would support a ban
However the tone of the article, implying that girls have it easy as fgm is now a no no, is naive and laughable

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 02/11/2015 11:15

Here's some pros of circumcision. I'm not saying I think it should be done routinely but I think it's enough it should be a matter of parental choice. Also I don't think the state should dictate how people practice their religion.

www.today.com/health/circumcision-benefits-outweigh-risks-cdc-says-1D80331010

DoctorFunkenstein · 02/11/2015 11:24

I thoroughly disagree with circumcising babies but I don't know if this is the right approach to get rid of it - surely it will just go underground like FGM? Boys will be taken abroad.

Conditions may be worse there.

The trouble is how else do you even try to prevent it?

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 11:26

"There is some evidence that circumcision can reduce the risk of the already incredibly rare penile cancer. There is also some evidence that circumcision offers some protection against HIV/AIDS. There is no evidence for any other health benefit."

Sorry but you are just not very well informed on this subject.

Comprehensive Risk-Benefit Analysis of Infant Male Circumcision
May 2014

Scroll down to Table 4, where you will see an extensive list of myriad contagious diseases and how much circumcision decreases their risks of contracting them.

Note that the figures are fold increase (as in 3-fold, 10-fold etc) and not %.

Studies from which those numbers come are cited to the right of each figure.

Risk of heterosexual HIV infection is 2.4-fold higher for the uncircumcised.
Risk of UTI for babies is 10-fold higher in the uncircumcised.
Risk of sphylis is almost 2-fold higher in the uncircumcised.
etc...

And then there is also this study about non-contagious skin conditions that circumcision largely prevents:

Table 2:

Men with Psoriasis.........72% are uncircumcised
Lichen Sclerosus...........98% are uncircumcised
Lichen Planus...............69% are uncircumcised
Seborrheic dermatitis....72% are uncircumcised
Zoon balanitis..............100% are uncircumcised
etc.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 11:28

Ghoul- I addressed those "pros" at 10.33.

Why should people be allowed to perform non medically required surgery on another person who can't consent simply because their religion says so?

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 11:31

Bertrand - I assume your last post was an X-post with mine. Read through the list of infections and non-infectious conditions that circumcision largely prevents and then let's talk about it.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 11:38

As I said- anyone who said they were circumcising their baby son to protect him against HIV or syphillis would, I hope, be treated with the contempt they deserve.

The "benefits" you list are almost all issues which only occur once a boy becomes sexually active- by which time he should have been taught to use a condom in order to protect himself from the many other sexually transmitted diseases which circumcision does not claim to be prophylactic against. And he will also be old enough to decide for himself whether he ants a foreskin or not!

The "health benefits" are routinely overstated for two reasons. American doctors are losing a nice little earner as infant circumcision rates drop. And religious communities are aware that there is growing distaste for the ritual and so are trying to muddy the waters.

DoctorFunkenstein · 02/11/2015 11:42

I daresay there would be various conditions that FGM might 'prevent' if there were enough research into it. I'm not sure what but there must be something, maybe inflammation of something that isn't there because it's been removed - I don't know.

Does that make it OK?

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 11:46

"The "benefits" you list are almost all issues which only occur once a boy becomes sexually active"

No. Can you take a minute to look at the link that I provided? There are many conditions during infancy there that are largely prevented by circumcision.

"The "health benefits" are routinely overstated for two reasons. American doctors are losing a nice little earner as infant circumcision rates drop. And religious communities are aware that there is growing distaste for the ritual and so are trying to muddy the waters."

So scientists are reporting false results of their studies because it's all a conspiracy Hmm

If you cared to take a minute to read the posts you reply to, you will see that the second study I posted about non-contagious skin conditions is from the Department of Dermatology, Imperial College School of Medicine, Chelsea & Westminster Hospital, London, England. Which Americans and which religious communities were involved in spreading those lies, in your biased opinion?

" anyone who said they were circumcising their baby son to protect him against HIV or syphillis would, I hope, be treated with the contempt they deserve."

I could put together a perfectly reasonable sentence involving contempt and people who debate without read others' posts, but there is no need for that.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 11:49

"Does that make it OK?"

My posts about the benefits of circumcision were not a moral judgement but a reply to those who said (1) there are no benefits, and (2) unnecessary medical procedures should be illegal.

The point is that there are benefits and therefore a case can easily be made that circumcision is not unnecessary.

CardinalPoint · 02/11/2015 11:59

I know circumcision is harder for adults than children but it's not exactly impossible. Why 'force' it on a baby, Why not leave it to the individual to decide what happens to their body.

As an atheist I find it extremely hard to understand the parents mentality. How can you assume that your child will definitely want it done.

user838383 · 02/11/2015 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 12:04

I did look at the paper you linked to. Their will always be cases where circumcision is medically necessary.

I am a bit baffled about why you are so cross about my reference to syphillis and HIV. There is evidence that circumcision offers some protection against them, but surely you must agree that that is a daft reason for circumcising a baby?

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 12:08

I'm not cross and you still haven't looked at the table I've linked, because you are still going on about 'daft reason for circumcising a baby for adult diseases'.

As I said several times before, there are infections on there that circumcision protects babies against as well as adults. In the other study (from London), there are non-infectious conditions that can develop at any age.

So please stop this disingenuous Straw Man strategy. I am not saying and have not said that the health benefits of circumcision are only for adults.

Atenco · 02/11/2015 12:09

I have no personal opinion on circumcision, but really comparing FGM and circumcision is madness.

FGM is a weird cultural practice with no connection to any religious group and permanently affects a women's pleasure in sex.

Circumcision is an essential part of the Jewish and Muslim religions and does not normally have any long lasting detrimental effects.

So essentially people are calling to criminalise two out of the three Abramic religions.

IPityThePontipines · 02/11/2015 12:18

IAmAWitch -I think 'uncivilized barbarian' pretty much covers how I feel about people who cut bits of their babies off.

So all Jews and Muslims who practice male circumcision are, according to you, a lower form of humanity?

Again, are you not finding anything at all disturbing about this argument?

Leelu6 · 02/11/2015 12:19

Can people stop being dramatic and calling male circumcision barbaric?

It's a brief process that lowers a male's risk of sexually transmitted diseases, penile cancer and urinary tract infections. There is scientific evidence to support this.

The very fact that some male babies are required to have it done for medical purposes should inform you that it's beneficial and in no way comparable to female genital mutilation.

CardinalPoint · 02/11/2015 12:19

It's not about criminalizing religions Hmm it's about encouraging religions to move with the times. Religions have and should evolve and adapt as society changes.

Circumcision for religious reasons is an outdated practice.

DoctorFunkenstein · 02/11/2015 12:21

I'm interested to know three things, Atenco, arising from your post:

  1. Why is FGM not considered, in your opinion, 'essential' to certain religions therefore calling for a ban on it is equaivalent to wanting to outlaw that religion?
  1. Is male circumcision really essential - ie can you not be Jewish or Muslim without being circumcised? Or is there tolerance for not doing it?
  1. When, historically, did circumcision of male children become an 'essential' part of these religions, and why?

I hope someone can answer.

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