Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 12:24

"it's about encouraging religions to move with the times. "

Religions are well-known for being rather stubborn to change, especially when pushed "encouraged", especially when this "encouragement" takes the form of name calling ('barbarians').

JassyRadlett · 02/11/2015 12:25

Cote - the problem for me with that study is that it doesn't detail the overall incidence of those conditions which makes it difficult to understand or evaluate the true risk profile. A threefold increase in a condition that almost no one gets would not be a significant reason for circumcision, because three times almost nothing is still almost nothing. But a threefold increase in a widespread condition would warrant further thought.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 12:27

"1. Why is FGM not considered, in your opinion, 'essential' to certain religions"

It is not her "opinion". FGM is not a part of any religion. It is most certainly not a part of Islam. It is a regional traditional African practice.

"2. Is male circumcision really essential - ie can you not be Jewish or Muslim without being circumcised?"

You can't be Jewish or Muslim without circumcision.

"3. When, historically, did circumcision of male children become an 'essential' part of these religions, and why?"

Do you need help looking up when Moses and Mohammad lived?

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 12:28

So if someone does something barbaric for religious reasons it suddenly stops being barbaric? Or is it just that we're not allowed to call it barbaric?

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 12:30

"the problem for me with that study is that it doesn't detail the overall incidence of those conditions which makes it difficult to understand or evaluate the true risk profile."

Look at that table. Individual studies are linked to for every condition and x-fold increase in its risk for uncircumcised males. You can easily read those individual studies for further details.

Whether or not you think it is important to significantly decrease your risk of myriad infectious diseases and non-infectious conditions is of course up to you.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 12:31

Bertrand - re "So if someone does something barbaric for religious reasons it suddenly stops being barbaric? Or is it just that we're not allowed to call it barbaric?"

I will stop replying to you if you don't stop with the Straw Man nonsense.

DoctorFunkenstein · 02/11/2015 12:32

Thank you, Cote - and yes, please, I would like some help with the Moses/Mohammed question. I don't even know the basics.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 12:35

"" anyone who said they were circumcising their baby son to protect him against HIV or syphillis would, I hope, be treated with the contempt they deserve."

I could put together a perfectly reasonable sentence involving contempt and people who debate without read others' posts, but there is no need for that."

Sound a bit cross to me, Cote Grin

The "benefits" to babies are mostly confined to a reduction in GTIs- which hardly seems a reason for non consensual surgery. And conditions where circumcision is medically advised. So it can be performed as needed.

JassyRadlett · 02/11/2015 12:36

The very fact that some male babies are required to have it done for medical purposes should inform you that it's beneficial and in no way comparable to female genital mutilation.

Well, no. It tells you it's beneficial to those babies who have it done for medical reasons. Sort of like having one's appendix removed is beneficial to those with appendix problems, but of bugger all benefit to those with healthy appendixes.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 12:37

It's only a sort of straw man argument if you don't think performing non essential surgery on someone unable to consent is barbaric. If you do, as I and many others do there ar no straw men involved.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 12:39

But no, it is in no way comparable to FGM. Whatever the Men's Rights brigade say.

JassyRadlett · 02/11/2015 12:43

Cote - apologies, I was referring to the second study you linked to which looks at UK data (though old).

From the Mayo study, eh, the data on overall benefit seems pretty mixed to me when you consider incidence. Is decreased lifetime risk of UTI (easily managed) enough of a benefit to justify a surgical procedure? Not to me.

Atenco · 02/11/2015 12:45

Well said Cote D'Azur

And to the person who says Judaism and Islam should just change, all I can say is that just because Christianity is an ever-changing creature, you cannot expect every other religion to change to suit fashion.

JassyRadlett · 02/11/2015 12:50

Atenco, can you see how equating 'desire to avoid unnecessary and hard to reverse surgical procedures to which children cannot consent' to 'fashion' is at best problematic?

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 12:53

The "health benefits" are a red herring anyway. It's just the religious lobbies trying to justify a particularly unpleasant special privilege. No different really from all the other special privileges they insist on- just a bit more bizarre and a lot more painful and invasive.

Titsalinabumsquash · 02/11/2015 12:54

My DS had a circumcision (for medical reasons) on his 11th birthday 2 months ago, it went wrong and he was rushed back to surgery after a worrying amount of blood loss, it was incredibly traumatic.
So on that basis, yes I would sign the petition.

msrisotto · 02/11/2015 13:02

FGM is a cultural practice, not actually a religious one. FYI.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 13:06

"FGM is a cultural practice, not actually a religious one. FYI."

Has anyone said differently?

samG76 · 02/11/2015 13:07

BertrandRussell - there's no religious "lobby" involved. There's simply a lot of religious people who would be livid about it. Those who don't want to circumcise their children generally don't, so the only people it will affect are those who do.

A religious debate on MN rarely ends well. All I would say is that I'm a member of a notoriously broad-minded Jewish community, but no-one would think of failing to have a brit for their son. I do know someone who didn't, but she's not a member of any community and goes around saying how she is ashamed to be Jewish, due to ME situation, etc.

Although I am unlikely to have any further DS's, any ban (which of course will never happen because of political implications) would certainly encourage me and many of my community to leave the country.

msrisotto · 02/11/2015 13:13

Erm, I dunno but that is a difference between circumcision and FGM.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 13:36

"Although I am unlikely to have any further DS's, any ban (which of course will never happen because of political implications) would certainly encourage me and many of my community to leave the country."

There is always the hope that a ban might give power to the elbows of Jewish people who don't want to inflict circumcision on their infant sons.

samG76 · 02/11/2015 13:46

BertrandRussell

There is always the hope that a ban might give power to the elbows of Jewish people who don't want to inflict circumcision on their infant sons.

If they don't want to, they don't have to. Posters above have said they are Jewish and haven't done it, although I suspect they have given up any vestige of Jewish practice.

MoriartyIsMyAngel · 02/11/2015 13:47

I may sign the petition, I've signed others in the past, but I'm feeling put off this particular one by the nauseating 'double standards' argument.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 13:51

"If they don't want to, they don't have to. Posters above have said they are Jewish and haven't done it, although I suspect they have given up any vestige of Jewish practice."

Yep. That easy. Hmm

Castledolorous · 02/11/2015 15:26

Signed.

Swipe left for the next trending thread