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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 01/11/2015 22:43

Signed and thank you.

I don't believe anyone has the right to do this to a baby/child, unless there's a medical reason for it.

In fact I think it's an abuse of parental power.

Runningoutofnamesagain · 01/11/2015 22:46

Ds1 is waiting for his appt for circumcision, he's terrified, but there's no choice

I don't know why anyone would do this unless for a medical reason

Arfarfanarf · 01/11/2015 22:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NinjaLeprechaun · 01/11/2015 22:50

"Well in the USA, lots of white middle class handwringers as you call them, practice it. It's very common there, almost universal."
This actually depends greatly on which part of the US you're in. It's more common in poorly-educated, poor, white populations - at the risk of stereotyping with statistics.

If I'm not mistaken 'routine' infant circumcision is illegal in San Francisco, possibly other places, so it's obviously not universal everywhere. Also, a lot of insurance providers won't pay for it. (I've seen people complaining that their insurance claim was turned down and that they had to pay for it out of pocket. Serves you bloody right.)

WorraLiberty · 01/11/2015 22:52

The only body you have the right to lob bits off from is your own

This ^^ 1 million times.

NotCitrus · 01/11/2015 23:04

Male circumcision in the US has halved in the last 30 years, simply because a number of insurers have stopped including it in their default birth coverage.

Much as I'd like to see male circumcision die out, I suspect a ban would lead to more circumcisions conducted by non-medically-qualified people and likely end up with more suffering than there is now. There's quite enough unenforced laws on the books already.

WorraLiberty · 01/11/2015 23:06

OP, have you shared the petition link on FB and Twitter?

contortionist · 01/11/2015 23:08

From the UK government's leaflet on FGM:

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures involving the partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or any other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.

FGM has been categorised into four types, ranging from a symbolic prick to the clitoris or prepuce, to the fairly extensive removal and narrowing of the vaginal opening. All these forms of FGM have been found in the UK.

So a "symbolic prick of the clitoris" is illegal in the UK, despite presumably having less of an impact than male foreskin removal. All of them should be illegal. I've signed the petition.

Devora · 01/11/2015 23:25

I see I'm going to be very much in the minority here and say I would not sign that petition. I'm with Tanya Gold.

Devora · 01/11/2015 23:27

Anybody who isn't an uncivilised barbarian would sign it.

Or a Jew.

CoteDAzur · 01/11/2015 23:28

Or a Muslim.

CoteDAzur · 01/11/2015 23:29

Or someone who is aware of the benefits of male circumcision.

LyndaNotLinda · 01/11/2015 23:36

I have quite a few Jewish friends that don't 'insist' on it Devora. So in that sense Tanya Gold is wrong. Their sons are still Jewish.

Mutilating children on anything other than medical grounds has no place in a secular society

BertrandRussell · 01/11/2015 23:37

Jews and Muslims can be barbarians. As can Christisans, Hindus, atheists and agnostics.

pootypootwell · 01/11/2015 23:38

Signed. I was relieved when my baby was a girl and it meant I could avoid a confrontation with DP's family over this. If I have a baby boy in the future there is absolutely no way I will allow him to be circumcised, it's cruel. Before I knew I was having a girl I looked up info on the circumcision of babies, and armed myself with info about how it's been shown to raise their stress levels, it's painful, makes their little hearts beat fast in panic etc etc. MIL felt the same about DP, but his dad took him off to have it done without asking her when he was a young teen.

Devora · 01/11/2015 23:43

A very small minority of Jews don't circumcise, Lynda. But for the vast majority of religious Jews, this is a covenant with God which makes it more important than almost any other consideration. Minimising or dismissing this obligation as of no consequence, saying they are 'wrong', is ... well, I don't want to be inflammatory.

For what it's worth, I am secular and if I had had boys I would not have circumcised. I do think this is a difficult issue. But I do dislike these hugely long threads with hundreds of Mumsnetters queueing up to dismiss the Jewish and Muslim faiths as primitive barbarism.

WitchSharkadder · 01/11/2015 23:47

I absolutely agree that routine circumcision is barbaric, I have a DS who has been circumcised and one who will be in the future (both due to hypospadias) and it was a very painful and distressing procedure. Why anyone would choose to put their child through that is beyond me.

I do take on board the point that banning it would mean that it would be carried out by unqualified people and therefore be much more dangerous though and the thought of tiny baby boys becoming very ill due to unsafe surgery is awful. So I'm really torn on whether to sign.

Devora · 01/11/2015 23:51

What on earth do posters think Jews and Muslims will do if this is banned? Just think, 'Oh well, fair enough, we lost the toss?' This is a covenant with God. Of course it makes no sense to the non-religious, but a little more understanding that it is a hugely big deal to those communities would go a long way.

LyndaNotLinda · 02/11/2015 00:00

I take your point Devora. And I also think a petition won't stop boys being circumcised. I suspect things will only change if there is pressure from within the community rather than outside it. I know too many parents who are relieved they have no sons so haven't had to deal with falling out with their families over circumcision.

AnyFucker · 02/11/2015 00:11

The same could be said of FGM

Thankfully though, it is illegal in this country

Just because something could be said to be a custom and of religious or cultural significance should not make us turn a blind eye

UncertainSmile · 02/11/2015 00:11

If someone claimed that their invisible friend required them to cut off healthy bits of their children's bodies, they'd be in Broadmoor and rightly so.
When the religious do the exact same thing though, apparently it's ok.

UncertainSmile · 02/11/2015 00:15

I imagine, Devora, that they'd have to obey the law or go to prison. Like anyone else, really.

mowglik · 02/11/2015 00:29

If it was made illegal it would go underground and become infinitely more dangerous. Rightly or wrongly Jews and Muslims won't stop a tradition they've held for centuries because a particular society in time decided to make it illegal. This would create a much more dangerous situation. A little more thought needed here I think.

Gladysandtheflathamsandwich · 02/11/2015 00:35

I dont like it anymore than FGM however I agree that it would go underground and the babies would suffer more. As it has the sanction of major world religions, no amount of campaigning will get rid of it.

So for that reason I wouldnt vote against it, even though I dont believe it is an acceptable thing to do.

Gladysandtheflathamsandwich · 02/11/2015 00:37

Devora what is the covenant with god exactly?

I dont see how having a foreskin makes someone a better or worse Jew or Muslim. I genuinely dont, not having a pop, I really dont understand and would like someone to explain why it is so important. Religion is in your heart, not your penis isnt it?

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