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Petitions and activism

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?

304 replies

Charlocornell · 01/11/2015 20:27

There is a petition launched today: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Here's the article I wrote as well. Comments are most welcome from the Mumsnet Community.

Right: let’s stop pretending a double standard doesn’t exist. A girl’s genitals are no more sacrosanct than those of the world’s men. Bodies are born, made as they were made to be made: there is no place in the modern world for doctor, state or faith to interfere. I’m going to state this very simply: it is time to ban all male circumcision, (unless for medical reasons) for all under 18s. I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please read the article and sign this petition if you agree.

At the moment our girls are protected thanks to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Whilst prosecutions using these laws have been worryingly few, British attitudes towards Female Circumcision (now always referred to using the non-hyperbolic term ‘Mutilation’) have vastly shifted.

Right now, a few people are gasping into their coffees. How can we discuss regulating male circumcision? ‘Surely that’s anti-semitic’ or ‘oh no, another example of pernicious Islamaphobia seeping into our society’, they say’ (it is too easily to pull these Get Out of Jail Free Cards). ‘Absolutely not’, I will counter: this is progress; this is protection for our babies and, finally, this is long overdue. My father’s Jewish family agree.

We wouldn’t be the first European country to debate banning the practice. The Danish parliament have recently debated the banning of the practice. There have also been attempts to criminalise the act in San Francisco, Iceland and other Nordic regions.

In 2013 the Swedish Medical Association also recommended 12 as a minimum age for male circumcision and requiring a boy’s consent; this recommendation was unanimously passed by the Association’s ethics council and was supported by the 85% of Swedish G.Ps that are members of said council. Furthermore, the Danish College of G.Ps issued a statement that ritual circumcision of boys ‘was tantamount to abuse and mutilation’ (trans.) and a regional court in Cologne, Germany ruled in June 2012 that ‘male circumcision performed as a ritual conflicts with the child’s best interests as the parents’ right to religious upbringing of their children, when weighed against the child’s right to physical integrity and self- determination, has no priority.’ The Child Rights International Network agrees: ‘it is time we started debating the issue from a civil-rights stance’. The Human Rights Council also states it simply enough: each child has a right to determine his or her own future. Parents may direct not determine a child’s choices in life. Circumcision is irrevocable; it is clear determination on the part of the parents, not simply the lighter touch of religious or cultural ‘direction’.

Columnist Tanya Gold was outraged in October 2013 when the Council of Europe passed a resolution called ‘The Child’s Rights to Physical Integrity’ . She writes: ‘For Jews, circumcision, which is performed at eight days (if the child is healthy), is the covenant with God, and the single most significant ritual in Judaism: “My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people.” It is almost the only ritual that both progressive and ultra-Orthodox Jews, so often at each others’ throats as to who is the most righteous kind of Jew, agree on; even progressives who embrace marriage to non-Jews, gay marriage and female elevation to the rabbinate insist on it.’

She has a point. She claims that some members of the Jewish community will leave any country which passed laws banning circumcision outright. This would be wrong; no-one should be press-ganged from anywhere because of what they believe. But babies don’t believe in anything yet (remember it is parents’ role to direct not determine). There is more of a need for state institutions and legislature to protect the bodies of the vulnerable than ever before. Why not a ‘symbolic, non-surgical ritual’ at 8 days instead (as suggested by Norway’s Ombudsman for Children) and then when they reach adulthood; Jewish men can affirm the covenant their parents suggested for them and can elect to have the procedure themselves? Times do change: of the 613 mitzvot, (248 do’s, and 365 don’ts) prescribed in the Torah, only 369 are still operative.

Another journalist, Neil Lyndon writing in The Telegraph in July 2014 asserted that male ritual genital mutilation is ‘the barbarity that can never be named as such.’ His article entitled ‘It’s time for a proper debate on circumcision’ attracted over 600 comments from readers, including one man who, having been circumcised as a baby himself, was persuaded not to circumcise his own sons. Who persuaded him not to? His own mother.

Then, the medical argument. Bear in mind that most studies eschewing positive medical grounds for universal circumcision come from countries where the majority are already circumcised. Whilst around 78% of the world’s men are intact, over 98% of studies claiming ‘positive medical grounds’ for circumcision come from countries where the vast majority of men are circumcised. To those who claim HIV and other STIs are less easily transmitted by a cut male, it is interesting to note that the U.S has much higher rates of HIV transmission than Europe; in the U.S 55% of men are circumcised (although this rate is falling each year) and in Europe only around 11% are. The idea of cutting as protection is outmoded; just wear a condom. The STI debate is also slightly erroneous as ground for not banning the cutting of children; babies and children are not sexually active. Hopefully parents also wash their children and teach them to maintain good genital hygiene. In modern Britain, we bathe our children regularly; these are not the Middle Ages where baths were a suspicious luxury. We can prevent 99% of infections just by doing what we now do everyday.

Furthermore, plenty of psychological studies have begun to examine the impact of early circumcision on the developing brain. A Psychology Today article published in January 2015 affirms that: ‘Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000).’ Even where pain relief is used, there are plenty of psychological consequences for boys including the body shaming notion that their bodies (as per design) were not ‘fit’ for purpose or a study from 1999 that proved that a majority of circumcised men conceptualized their circumcision experience as an act of violence, mutilation, or sexual assault.

The debate rages; of course it does. From excellent articles in America to very thorough research from The University of Oxford on the matter everyone wants to think about it. Well, let the debate rage here in Britain, I say and I repeat: I contend that the British parliament should debate this issue. Please sign here if you agree:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/111265

Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
Would you vote on ban infant male circumcision?
OP posts:
zipzap · 02/11/2015 00:42

I can remember being taught (back in the late 80s) at uni about how US scientists studying the differences between males and females had discovered that baby boys cried a lot more than baby girls in their first few months. Huge significant difference, that they postulated led on to all sorts of other things, not least in the way parents treated the sexes differently, maybe due to the difference in amount of crying, as well as all sorts of other differences.

They then tried to replicate the study in the UK - didn't find any significant differences between the two groups.

Both sides were claiming that the other side had obviously done something 'wrong' to get such different results.

Eventually somebody realised that in the US the boys were typically circumcised while in the UK they weren't . When they then looked at boys - circumcised vs uncircumcised - vs girls - they found that it was the circumcised boys that were crying much more than girls or uncircumcised boys for months.

And apparently doctors used to routinely encourage parents to get boys done over there because they could claim for it on insurance, and it became a self fulfilling circle - as more and more men then went on to have kids, they assumed it was normal as they'd been done and it was a standard part of the medical insurance (that they'd want to get their money's worth from and why would it be included if there wasn't a need for it? etc etc). As it's now being dropped from medical insurance the rates of uptake are falling so hopefully it will eventually just happen for medical reasons.

Devora · 02/11/2015 00:56

Gladys, I'm not religious so not really the right person to ask. I just recognise the logic that if you do believe that something is a promise made to God, then that would outweigh most other considerations. And so those who would like to see the end of circumcision need to engage with that, not just say it's not that big a deal or dismiss it as hocus pocus.

Here's an analogy: I'm strongly pro-choice but recognise there are people who genuinely believe meaningful life begins at conception and so all abortion is murder. It's kind of pointless to keep arguing at them about special cases such as underage girls or conception through rape. Murder cannot be justified; there is no point arguing with those people in those terms. (Though I believe that the majority of people who argue against abortion don't actually see it as murder.)

I'm not a fan of circumcision. But for me, the damage caused by telling Jews and Muslims that one of the central tenets of their faith is stupid and primitive and should be criminalised outweighs the harm caused by circumcision. (And it is a central tenet - unlike FGM which is a cultural/traditional practice but not a religious requirement.) I may be wrong on that. I might feel differently if I lived in the US, where the practice is much more mainstream. But right now that is where the balance of risks lies for me.

Gladysandtheflathamsandwich · 02/11/2015 00:58

zipzap Thats not surprising but so upsetting that those poor babies suffer so much :(

Its barbaric.

IPityThePontipines · 02/11/2015 01:04

"uncivilised barbarian"

Really? So anyone who disagrees with you on this matter is essentially subhuman?

Can you not realise why such a comment is sickening in terms of wider world events?

These threads

Gladysandtheflathamsandwich · 02/11/2015 01:05

I see what you are saying Devora. Perhaps a more meaningful conversation could be had by asking those who do believe that its the right thing to do from a religious stand point why they believe it. Not from a "its what we do" cultural ideal but why they as individuals support it. By questioning it, many may find that they dont.

Devora · 02/11/2015 01:22

I certainly think that the tone of the current debate will polarise people and make positive change less likely, Gladys. As I said, I don't like circumcision - but if push comes to shove, I'm on the barricades supporting my Jewish heritage, not those who blithely label the Jewish community as a bunch of barbaric child abusers.

Tiggeryoubastard · 02/11/2015 01:26

Abso fucking lutely. However you dress it up. If its your belief, cut something off yourselves, if you want to 'save' your children then you make the 'sacrifice'. It's shocking that we have all the initiatives to stop FGM yet this mutilation of innocent children is still legal in a supposed first world country.
Fucking shameful.

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/11/2015 01:39

I absolutely disagree with male circumcision.

However, the whole tone of your OP, pretending that girls have been well-served by the law and public opinion on this matter... how many prosecutions again? Just makes me angry.

CardinalPoint · 02/11/2015 02:04

I'll sign.
I think it's perfectly OK for 'boys' (over 18) to be circumcised if, and only if, they want to be.

Doing it to a baby because you are religious is just plain wrong and a bit weird. I don't understand why some religions have these outdated requirements. You would think being religious should be about being a good person not chopping off bits off little boys willies. Confused.

brokenhearted55a · 02/11/2015 02:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VulcanWoman · 02/11/2015 03:37

Signed.

Qwebec · 02/11/2015 05:11

DP had it done as a baby because at the time doctors said it was more hygenic. I would never do this to my children, but I am also against ear piercing babies. It does not mean I think other should be forbiden to do something because it makes me uncomfortable.
It has already been pointed out, but when laws are thaught, it'S important to see what would be the consequences in the real world. It would mean getting it done under poor hygene conditions, hesitating to seek help if something goes wrong, people of other cultures feeling ostracised.

It does not sit right with me to impose my point of view to others when the negative sides are so rare (millions of people get it done if it was a major hazard it would not be something mainstream nor be advised by the medical staff a few decades ago). So I won't sign a petition against ear piercing infants or circumcision.

sashh · 02/11/2015 06:11

I can see a difficulty with a ban except for medical needs, I'm sure the number of 'medically necessary' circumcisions would increase.

There is never a medical reason for FGM, there can be for circumcision.

Will parents be outlawed from taking their child to a country it is legal in? Or to give birth in a country where it is legal?

For many people the latter option would be to give birth in the USA or Israel - both with modern health care systems, but let's be honest for some families that will be sending a pregnant woman to Pakistan or Bangladesh to give birth, and if you are not in a city then you may not have access to any medical treatment.

So then do we ban women from travelling when pregnant?

I think education first, on things like the baby didn't cry not because it didn't hurt but because it was in shock, the risks of infection.

Like it or not religion does have a certain amount of privilege.

brokenmouse

Well done you. Has everyone accepted it now?

IAmNotAWitch · 02/11/2015 06:12

I think 'uncivilized barbarian' pretty much covers how I feel about people who cut bits of their babies off.

Fucking hell people are stupid.

Roonerspism · 02/11/2015 06:19

I would support this.

We aren't saying FGM isn't worse. (It's horrendous). But that doesn't mean we can't also agree that male circumcision isn't great either.

It's non-consensual surgery which is completely unnecessary.

Eminybob · 02/11/2015 06:45

Yet another reason that I am so staunchly atheist. Another example of religion doing more harm than good.

There is never any excuse for putting a tiny baby through unnecessary surgery.

I also feel the same way about ear piercing fwiw.

user838383 · 02/11/2015 07:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SlaggyIsland · 02/11/2015 09:32

I read up on this a while ago. The foreskin is actually an important part of the structure of the penis. It contains a huge amount of nerve endings and also encases an area that isn't meant to be constantly exposed/rubbed against material.
So anyone who has been circumcised has had their future sexual experiences altered permanently, and for the worse. Circumcised men can't even masturbate without lubrication.
And many men have problems as adults, with scar tissue, skin bridges, loss of sensation etc etc.
I wouldn't compare it to FGM, of course not, but that doesn't make it right.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 09:56

"anyone who has been circumcised has had their future sexual experiences altered permanently, and for the worse"

DS isn't circumcised but the pedant in me just has to correct some of the stuff on this thread.

there are extensive studies with men circumcised as adults. Here, read and learn:

Study after study after study has shown that circumcision doesn't reduce penis sensitivity & sexual pleasure. Some men circumcised as adults actually report an increase in sensitivity, while many report no appreciable difference; virtually none noted any notable decrease. Men circumcised as adults also almost universally report no adverse effect in overall sexual satisfaction following the procedure. (That fits with Slate's findings when it asked readers for their circumcision stories a few years ago.) And genital sensitivity in response to erotic stimulation is identical in circumcised and uncircumcised men.

Don't trust individual studies? A systematic review of all available data on circumcision came to the same conclusion.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 09:58

Sorry about that 'read and learn', btw. I didn't mean that to sound quite as patronising Smile Copy/pasted from another thread that had turned a bit snarky by the time that post came along.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 09:59

There are many red herrings on this thread.

All that needs to be said is that it should be illegal to perform non medically essential surgery on someone who is too young to consent.

CoteDAzur · 02/11/2015 10:14

"should be illegal to perform non medically essential surgery on someone who is too young to consent."

Yes, but what is "medically essential"?

Rubella vaccination certainly isn't essential for a baby, especially a boy.

Given that circumcision does confer lifelong benefits re risk of many infections and genital conditions, a case can easily be made that it is in the long-term interest of the child to have it.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2015 10:33

"Given that circumcision does confer lifelong benefits re risk of many infections and genital conditions, a case can easily be made that it is in the long-term interest of the child to have it."

There is some evidence that circumcision can reduce the risk of the already incredibly rare penile cancer. There is also some evidence that circumcision offers some protection against HIV/AIDS. There is no evidence for any other health benefit.

Anyone saying that they wanted to circumcise their infant son because he would then have a slightly reduced risk of becoming infected with HIV were he to have unprotected sex would, I hope, not be taken seriously. And in any case, it is not infant circumcision which confers these "benefits". There is no reason why the penis owner concerned can't decide for himself whether it was worth it once he reached an appropriate age.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 02/11/2015 10:36

I actually disagree and think conparing male circumcision to FGM potentially undermines the seriousness of FGM. Male circumcision has some pros and some cons. I wouldn't do it to my DS without medical grounds but can see it's not as clear cut as all that.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 02/11/2015 10:38

Being circumcised at an older age is much worse that it being done as baby so can see logic of doing baby rather than waiting.

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