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Petitions and activism

e-cigarettes debate

300 replies

Weechancer · 18/09/2015 14:02

The Scottish Parliament Health & Sport committee is holding a public consultation on e-cigs so i have started a change.org.uk petition to open up this debate.

MNHQ has edited this post as petition links and such must be posted in our Petitions board, however for those who are interested it is easy to find from the information above

OP posts:
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PlentyOfPubeGardens · 06/10/2015 17:37

We did like the wee poem! Shock

Is that from FB? I'm not on there, how's the FB 'debate' going?

Twunk · 06/10/2015 17:54

Yes on his profile - funnily enough not everyone agrees with him though none has commented on his links this thread (that I can see anyway), or indeed joined the thread on here to jump to his defence.

To be fair the wee poem was the most cogent thing he's said!

Room101isWhereIUsedToLive · 06/10/2015 21:42

I think I missed the poem, can someone copy and paste?
And I absolutely despise men which is why I have butterflies at the moment because a guy I have met recently is coming over later. Though to be fair, I am trying to convince myself that he is actually an alien and not a MAN, God forbid!

NiNoKuni · 06/10/2015 21:45

Here you go Room101:

When we learn to listen to our children,
we will come to realise,
that they are like mirrors,
reflecting back to us,
what we, have done to them.

Max Cruickshank

And yes, all us lot on Mumsnet clearly hate men. Clearly.

ginmakesitallok · 06/10/2015 21:56

I'm getting fed up with this thread now. Max refuses to listen and is just using it to further his own agenda. Not on.

I don't think it's worth posting any more.

NiNoKuni · 06/10/2015 22:11

I can do poems too!

There once was a young man named Max
Who had an aversion to facts
But debating is tough
So he got in a huff
And thought all Mumsnetters were lax

NiNoKuni, age 35 and 1/4

Twunk · 06/10/2015 22:39
Twunk · 06/10/2015 22:40

Oooooo Room101 I hope it goes well Grin

Weechancer · 11/10/2015 17:58

Likes your wee poem.

It was nice to see a couple of positive comments about my wee poem. I have been accused of digression quite a lot in this discussion but there is a reason for it. I am tying to open up the discussion to view the bigger picture, as I see it.

The poem said:

Once we learn to listen to young people,
We will realise that they are like mirrors,
reflecting back to us,
What we have done to them.

Max Cruickshank
Youth Worker
28/8/96

I wrote that poem because i was sick to the back teeth of trying to persuade politicians, youth and children’s workers, the media and others that empowering children and our young people was important. They ignored my pleas. Since then we have had all the exposure of child abuse, big worries about bullying, the new phenomena of Sexting and easy access to pornography of the worst kind, in our children’s bedrooms, hidden from parental controls, the scourge of an ever increasing number of children with mental health issues and obesity about to overwhelm our NHS. All of that affects every family in the land, it will cost us dearly if we cannot start to address it.

Fortunately, we in Scotland have made quite a bit of progress on all of that with our Young Scot youth information initiative, now copied in over thirty European countries, and England, giving kids access to reliable sources of information and trusted help. We have established our Scottish Youth Parliament, which the Scottish Parliament consults on ALL issues to do with children and young people. We have the vote at 16-17 in all elections, following the amazing demonstration of just how sensible our youth can be in our Referendum. We had 96,000 virgin voters of 16 & 17 registered to vote, and at the referendum 95% of them used their newly granted democratic right to vote, and hold our politicians to account. When I approached David Cameron to extend this franchise to all 16 & 17 year olds in the UK, he got the chair of the conservative party to email me with a rambling note, which basically said “there is absolutely no evidence that there is any desire for the vote of this age group”. Hmm!

So listening to our children will not be happening any time soon south of the Scottish border - unless others, and especially the adults dare to support our children in pursuing this to protect our children, and our democracy from decline.

So what on earth has this got to do with e-cigs and my petition asking that industry to fund, totally independent research into are e-cigs really safe, and do they aid people to completely abandon smoking and the nicotine addiction associated with it? In my mind, has everything to do with it. If we did that research it could include seeking the views of our children, who I am sure would contribute enormously to the debate, we would all gain from it. In the Scottish Referendum all the press predicted that the virgin voters were all going to vote NO but when the young people deliberated on it and considered the spin and dishonesty of our political leaders they changed their minds at eh very last minute, and voted overwhelmingly for YES for independence instead.

Those of you who have joined this very extensive discussion have contributed enormously to my understanding of the e-cigs issue. Most of you seem to have some great fear that if my petition were to succeed, you will all be deprived of what you believe to be the right to access, a safe and reliable way to quit smoking. You have argued vehemently that it is having no adverse affect on the youth of the world, I think you may be wrong. Because we really do not know the facts yet. I also think that you have absolutely nothing to fear, reliable, well designed research could easily be done by one of our well established universities, with no interference from those charged with funding it. The outcome must surely be to the advantage of every single one of us, young and old. Those who seek to profit from such a trade would be laughing all the way to the bank, if Weechancer’s views were kicked into touch, and it turned out that there is not a problem for any of us.

So sorry for my ramblings. I hope they made sense to some of you.

I have some important writing deadlines to meet this week, so may not be able to join in the fun. But I am sure that will not deter any of the others who are following this discussion. I live in hope that betweenness we can do our bit to make the world a better place than we found it when we arrived on it.

OP posts:
PlentyOfPubeGardens · 11/10/2015 19:32

So sorry for my ramblings. I hope they made sense to some of you.

Not really no, but TBH I'm past caring. You have been shown repeatedly and in depth why the arguments in your petition and on this thread are wrong. You say this discussion has contributed enormously to your understanding of the issues surrounding ecigs but you are still posting the same shit as if none of us had responded. Rather than properly addressing the points put to you, you have instead written some really nasty garbage about us on your petition page and when this is pointed out on this thread you have cheerfully carried on as if nothing has happened. Why would anybody want to continue a discussion with someone who behaves like that?

I am not worried about your petition succeeding. It has taken you four weeks to gain 43 signatures. Even if it got a bajillion signatures and was the most popular petition ever, as soon as politicians and policy makers looked at it they would see the glaring flaws in it and throw it out.

What I am concerned about is smokers reading your ill-conceived notions and deciding that they may as well stick to smoking as there's not much advantage in switching to vaping. That's why I have taken so much time on this thread. The dangerous bullshit you are spouting is starting to repeat itself now though so I think I can safely stop. It's all been said.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 11/10/2015 19:40

Oh by the way, I reported your OP and suggested that MNHQ might have been in error removing your petition link. I was told that if I sent the link they would reinstate it. I couldn't be bothered.

Twunk · 11/10/2015 21:06

Please put your considerable energies where they are needed Max. Try and do less harm than good.

NiNoKuni · 11/10/2015 21:32

You've earned it Grin

Weechancer · 12/10/2015 09:31

So your guy's are aloft freedom of speech are you?

OP posts:
Weechancer · 12/10/2015 09:37

who is patronising now eh! I spend an inordinate amount of my time in supporting people with difficulties, but only they an I know how effective that is.

OP posts:
NiNoKuni · 12/10/2015 10:41

Hahaha! Disagreeing with you is a freedom of speech issue? That is comedy gold, that is.

You may be the world's best youth support worker, I don't know, but you are utterly pants at debating, Max.

People have tried many times to point out the flaws in your proposals, the evidence that already exists, the studies that have been done, the legislation already in place and upcoming, their own personal experiences and fears. All you've done is repeat yourself, appeal to your own authority, rack up strawmen and slippery slope fallacies, and conflate e-cigs with hardcore drug and alcohol abuse. And to top it all off, you call us man-hating druggies and lushes who hate freedom of speech for disagreeing with you!

Did you mean to be so rude?

CerseiLannistersEyebrow · 12/10/2015 18:06

Oh my god, piss off you arrogant prick. Wading into a forum you know nothing about, ignoring people (women, who you've insulted) who spend their time carefully presenting evidence to you and making passive aggressive swipes. SMOKING TOBACCO KILLS. E CIGARETTES ARE NOT TOBACCO. THEY WILL SAVE LIVES.

Go wave your willy somewhere else.

Now, that's rude.

Randomtiddles1 · 21/10/2015 11:36

Anyone know what has happened to Max's petition? It seems to have disappeared (although he has not) !

NiNoKuni · 21/10/2015 14:54

No idea, but he is still peddling his nonsense here

Many people saying what has been said here, Max still not listening to a word of it and repeatedly appealing to his own authority. Oh well.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 21/10/2015 18:52

It's still there, he has 47 signatures now Grin He's removed the nasty post about MNers (thank you, Max) but has added one misrepresenting Linda Bauld's views - pretty much the same as his Herald Scotland letter.

Oh and he's been called some rude things on Twitter but I don't think he goes on there much. Someone said he's been around, spouting his rubbish on ecigs for years.

Randomtiddles1 · 21/10/2015 19:08

Oh, I could not find it on the site he posted it on and your link to it on page 10 seemed not to be able to find it. Yes , I saw the rubbish in the Herald ! He is definitely unmoved by reason or logic - quite a dangerous person in his position, although he would not see that.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 21/10/2015 19:45

I can't decide whether he's dangerous or not.

On the one hand, his arguments are so out there and so lacking in anything to back them up that I can't imagine anybody informed, on any 'side', taking him seriously.

On the other hand, I'm concerned that ordinary smokers and vapers might not realise what a load of bollocks it all is. Letters in the mainstream press are dangerous I think because they reach the general public who don't usually know the context of the current debates.

So I can cheerfully laugh at his submissions to the Scottish consultation but I'm much more troubled by the Herald letter. I'm torn between putting energy into countering his bullshit and letting it die through lack of interest.

Jw35 · 21/10/2015 20:03

'Wave your Willy somewhere else' Grin

I'm a vaper. Gave up smoking heavily 3 years ago. I've got 2 kids, the youngest is 10 months. I'm so glad I didn't smoke while pregnant like I did with my eldest. Thanks to e-cigs my children aren't suffering my 2nd hand smoke either.

All your info is bollocks, as for being a youth worker all I can say is poor kids.

Oh and lastly..get a life

Randomtiddles1 · 21/10/2015 20:47

Hi Plenty,

Some good comments there. In my experience as a lawyer dealing with people problems, I would be concerned about the effect he could have with his views. If he were just Joe Public, I would go with your "cheerfully Laugh" scenario. However, he is out there, apparently, as an expert on drugs, children etc, and it is clear he has, as a result, a much wider (and less discerning) audience. In my experience, that makes him dangerous, because he commands wrongly, as it turns out) respect for his views. So I think I am concerned. He won't fool you, or many on this site, but we can see for ourselves how many of the general public can be taken in .

Yes, JW, he needs to get a life !

Jux · 07/11/2015 21:23

This is my ecig. It doesn't look like a cigarette, does it.

Anyway, I just wanted to say, weechancer, have you actually read any of this thread aside from your own posts? Do you understand it, because it doesn't seem like you do.

Please don't be one of thick, ignorant, idiots who sticks to what they first said just because they want to.

Think about those poor kids you think you're helping, with the amount of misinformation you're churning out. Try to change, society will thank you for it.

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