e-cigarettes debate

[Weechancer]

The Scottish Parliament Health & Sport committee is holding a public consultation on e-cigs so i have started a change.org.uk petition to open up this debate.

MNHQ has edited this post as petition links and such must be posted in our Petitions board, however for those who are interested it is easy to find from the information above

Why, I ask, should we the taxpayers, yet again have to pay to clear up the mess of industries that profit from encouraging the use of dangerous drugs like Nicotine, which will inevitably cause harm to individuals and families. It is a public scandal that 50% of the smokers of the past generations have died from tobacco. Yet that industry denied all responsibility.

Can you explain what 'we the taxpayers' are being asked to pay, wrt vaping? As far as I can see, vaping is saving 'we the taxpayers' a shedload of money by being a) effective and b) not costing the NHS a single penny.

Myth 7: Nicotine causes 'inevitable harm to individuals and families'
Truth: Smoking causes inevitable harm to individuals and families but . Smoking is extremely harmful because of carbon monoxide, tobacco-specific nitrosamines and around 4-6 thousand other chemicals which are not present in ecigs. Nicotine on its own is not particularly harmful to health (no worse than caffeine) and is also not particularly addictive - nicotine plus some other ingredients in cigarettes are a highly addictive combination, nicotine on its own, not so much.

Weechancer

your heart speeds up, your body gets stressed and you get high. A very few minutes later you crash down again and don't like that low, agitated even depressed state, so what do you do?

I post on Mumsnet again. Maybe MN should be banned?

Well i think i have already proved that there is a real need for public discussion of this topic.

My background is 50 years in youth work with a special interest in health issues and young people. I have run thousands of health workshops for kids and the most interesting thing I discovered is around 50 myths about drugs that both young people and adults believe to be the truth. e.g. on alcohol, you can drink your self sober, on smoking that it relaxes you, on illicit drugs that cannabis is harmless, because it is a from a plant.

Drug deaths in Scotland alone were 613 last year, but the alcohol related deaths were around 1200, deaths from smoking are 13,500 per year. The figures for the rest of the UK is around ten times these figures. It is hard to get accurate and comparative statistics on this.

There has been loads of drugs education of school aged children, very little after that, when most drug use happens. It is almost impossible to involve parents in drugs education, as they never think it will be a problem until it happens to their children. Then, sadly they realise how little they actually know. Most drug deaths of the under 21's is from alcohol.

E-cigarettes are a new area of drug use, where so far very little proper research has been done. This is partly because it is too new, and also because nobody wants to fund it, yet, until the problems start to show, then it will all happen.

Nobody, me included, knows the real facts about e-cigarettes. it is not in the interest of the e-cigs industry to reveal them, and the government has been caught on the hop because this new way of using nicotine was well planned by the multi-national tobacco industry to keep their fast diminishing customers on board. They the Myth that e-cigs is a highly successful way to quit smoking, which is completely unproven. The fact is that 10 million people in the UK have already quit smoking, long before e-cigs came about. Now only 8 million continue to smoke.

The big worry is that there is no laws yet in place to control this industry. So we have no idea of the quality of the products. The retailers, independent or not, have no training to advise people on how to use e-cigs safely, which is not surprising as we do not know if these product are safe.

There are not even laws in place to prevent children from using these products. I am quite sure that all parents would find this a worry. Our existing laws about tobacco are crazy anyway. Believe it or not you can smoke at any age! The law only prohibits you from purchasing tobacco, not from using it. You can also consume alcohol from the age or 5 in the UK.

My petition is about opening up this debate and for once trying to put the onus on the producers and retailers of drugs, to prove that what they are selling is not going to cause hundreds of thousands of people to suffer from health problems, that they had no idea they might get, from the drugs they choose to use. Adults have every right to use what ever drugs they like. But surely we must do all we can to protect our children.

If anyone is still in doubt about this, ask yourself is it alright for your children to drink ten cups of coffee a day, if the myth that caffeine is similar to nicotine is true. Are you happy for your children to be vaping e-cigaretes, as school children in France are doing already.

Delighted so many of your are joining in this long needed debate.

No-one kicks up a fuss about the traditional nicotine replacement stuff that have been around for years - gum, mints, inhalators, patches - all of which contain nicotine. I've tried all of those, they gave me the shakes, headaches, the patch gave me skin irritation. I've had no bad effects from e-cigs.

Nicotine may be harmful but e-cigs are free from all the other chemicals that are in real cigarettes. It is a massive reduction in harm. And as I said, traditional stop smoking aid products contain nicotine too!

Besides plenty of people, including myself, vape using nicotine free liquids.

And when my daughter is older, if she wants to experiment, I would prefer she tried vaping to smoking.

No legal controls in place:

There are no laws in place to control the production or distribution of these products, not even to ensure that children cannot buy or use them.

Myth 8: There are no laws in place to control the production or distribution of these products, not even to ensure that children cannot buy or use them.
Truth: Ecigs, just like any other consumer product you buy, are subject to numerous regulations already. If you're worried about children, from October, sales of ecigs to under 18's in England will be banned. Scotland will almost definitely follow the same route. Meanwhile 2/3 of smokers started smoking as children. As someone who works with young people would it not have been more productive to start a campaign to make bying actual cigarettes harder for children?

You're probably not aware OP, because it's obvious you have read no research or policy whatsoever, that as of May next year the Tobacco Products Directive comes into force. Article 20 of this will pretty much anihilate the ecig market. So there you go. I'm sure you'll enjoy a hollow cheer while the young people in your care carry on smoking because vaping is no longer a viable alternative.

Plenty, how will it annihilate the e cig market? Im surprised the govt aren't tryong to make money from it, I see so many people do it now.

Well i think i have already proved that there is a real need for public discussion of this topic.

No, you have proved that despite the evidence there are still a few fucknuggets who just don't like vaping and are determined to rail against it regardless. The debate has been had. You're too late and you bring no new evidence to the table. The evidence is against your stupid fucking harmful petition.

IF PEOPLE ARE MADE TO BELIEVE VAPING IS AS HARMFUL AS SMOKING THEY WILL CARRY ON SMOKING

You have blood on your hands. Stop it. Seriously.

Fuxache OP if you really want to help young people turn your attentions to legal highs which make mild mannered people fight with the strength of ten men on the way to the cells.

THEN will you be doing something useful.

lorelei, see here Nothing on the market today can pass these regulations.

Nicotine is a powerful stimulant drug,

When you use it your heart speeds up, your body gets stressed, so you get hyperactive and high. It does not relax you. After a short time, a few minutes, these effects wear off and you come back down from your high, and feel lethargic, agitated, depress and stressed. Not a place you want to be, so what do you do next? You reach for the fags, or your vaporiser to take another hit of Nicotine. When you've done this, yes, you will feel relaxed, because your have just taken something to alleviate your stressed up body and your addiction to nicotine.This traps you in what I call the addictive circle or loop, of high’s and low’s, which will continue until you stop taking the nicotine.

Myth 9: Nicotine is a powerful stimulant drug
Truth: It's about like coffee

Myth 10: You get high off nicotine
Truth: No, it's about like coffee

As it happens, nicotine is one of the most interesting leads in smart-drug research because of its ability to increase alertness and concentration. It has also shown promising results as a treatment for Parkinson's, early stage Alzheimers, epilepsy and schizophrenia. Nobody who has been treated with nicotine as part of a RCT for one of these conditions has become addicted as a result.

We have been well warned!

For decades the government’s health experts have told us that nicotine is a highly addictive and dangerous drug.

Until recently, nicotine has been inextricably tied up with smoking and all its harms. NHS now prescribes nicotine to pregnant women and children. Addiction to NRT alone is negligible.

However, the e-cigarette industry want us to believe that nicotine use is not a problem, “it is no worse than caffeine” is one of their myths

Please explain how this is a myth.

or “that it is a different sort of nicotine, a safer nicotine” is another”. This is utter nonsense

True. I've never heard anybody else say this except for you though. I think you just made it up.

designed to con people into buying these products, with no regard to the consequences on our health.

If you are not a smoker this has no effect on your health whatsoever. If you are a smoker, you can reduce the harm by around 95% if you switch to vaping.

There are now estimated to be only 8 million people in the uk still smoking and 10 million who have successfully quit. Believe it or not but around 90% of those who have quit did so without any form of help. No nicotine patches, no hypnosis, no smoking cessation classes, no e-cigarettes. Just the amazing power of their own minds. They changed their subconscious mindset which told them I am a smoker, to one that said I am a non-smokers, and it did not cost them one penny. If you find this hard to believe check out your friends who have quit and hear their success stories.

(ASH stats say 10 million UK smokers but whatever)

Myth 11 (woohoo!) - everyone can quit by cold turkey
Truth - Some people can quit by cold turkey, many others can't. The majority of those who can quit by cold turkey already have, leading to the amazing statistic of ~0.8% decrease in smoking prevalence per year in England (oh no, sorry, thats not amazing is it? 0.8% / year is a bit shit). Those who can't quit by cold turkey are massively disproportionately those on low incomes or who have MH diagnoses, as I'm sure you know if you work in this field and aren't just spouting BS . Telling people they must quit by cold turkey or else is counterproductive and cruel. We need all the strategies available to help smokers to quit because smokers are individuals and what works for one person won't work for the next. If they can't quit we need to be encouraging harm reduction methods.

You sound like the people who advocate abstinence as a way of preventing HIV and you are just as dangerous.

So far, many contributors to the Mumsnet discussion on e-cigs, have argued that the nicotine in them is no more dangerous than caffeine.

The facts tell a very different story. Caffeine like nicotine is powerful stimulant drug.

When caffeine is consumed in high quantities or mixed with alcohol it makes people aggressive and often violent. Police Scotland recently reported that in 3 years, there were 7,000 violent crimes associated with the drinking of the English Aperitif, Buckfast Tonic Wine, made by the monks of Buckfast Abbey, in Devon. Buckfast contains 15% of alcohol, the same as most bottles of Sherry, and is loaded with 281 milligrammes of caffeine, equivalent to 16 cans of coke. The mixture of alcohol, a downer or depressant drug, and caffeine an upper, or stimulant drug, is problematic.

Schools across Britain report enormous problems with pupils who are not only sleep deprived, but also loaded up with caffeine, from energy drinks like Redbull. At the start of the day the pupils are hyper and sometime aggressive, as the day goes on, the stimulant high wears off and the pupils come down from their chemical high, and lose all their energy. Some then doze or fall asleep.

So I conclude that the myth that nicotine is no worse than caffeine, is no way to defend the safety of e-cigs, containing nicotine. No parent would want their children to start Vaping in school to get them through the day.

The phrase 'flogging a dead horse' springs to mind here op.

You are wrong, just plain wrong. Give it up as a bad job and find something actually useful to fill your time.

There is no evidence to support your assertion that non-smoking children are taking up vaping. Your comparison between vaping and drinking Buckfast is ludicrous, just like your petition.

E cigarettes could be a huge public health game changer. One out of every 2 smokers will die because of their smoking. Vaping will save thousands of lives.

And, frankly....if kids are trying to take up vaping as its now the 'cool' thing to do, good! If you offered my kids a choice between thinking coffee or fags were cool, I'd rather them get a hardcore caffeine habit before I'd let them smoke. I'd rather they vaped all day long than live with second hand smoke. I'd rather they vaped and ate a healthy diet rather than live on chips but not smoke. Vaping as a parent, doesn't worry me a much as bullying, stds, tattoos, ill fitting shoes and a whole list of other things.

This is from the UK Govt. blog. I have C&P the whole thing so you don't even need to click anything.

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Joint statement on e-cigarettes by Public Health England and other UK public health organisations.

We all agree that e-cigarettes are significantly less harmful than smoking. One in 2 lifelong smokers dies from their addiction. All of the evidence suggests that the health risks posed by e-cigarettes are relatively small by comparison but we must continue to study the long term effects.

And yet, millions of smokers have the impression that e-cigarettes are at least as harmful as tobacco and we have a responsibility to provide clear information on the facts as we know them to be. It is our duty to provide reassurance for the 1.1 million e-cigarette users who have completely stopped smoking to prevent their relapse.

To be clear, the public health opportunity is in helping smokers to quit, so we may encourage smokers to try vaping but we certainly encourage vapers to stop smoking tobacco completely.

We know that e-cigarettes are the most popular quitting tool in the country with more than 10 times as many people using them than using local stop smoking services. But, we also know that using local stop smoking services is by far the most effective way to quit.

What we need to do is combine the most popular method with the most effective and that is why we are encouraging those who want to use e-cigarettes to quit smoking to seek the help of their local stop smoking service.

The current national evidence is that in the UK regular e-cigarette use is almost exclusively confined to those young people who smoke, and youth smoking prevalence is continuing to fall. This is an area that we will continue to research and keep under closest surveillance. In October this year, regulations to protect children will make it an offence to sell e-cigarettes to anyone under 18 or to buy e-cigarettes for them and within a year the EU Tobacco Products Directive proposes a ban on all print and broadcast advertising of e-cigarettes as part of a full range of regulations.

The concerns on Public Health England’s evidence review, raised by McKee and Capewell in the BMJ today, are not new and have been covered and fully responded to before.

We should not forget what is important here. We know that smoking is the number one killer in England and we have a public health responsibility to provide smokers with the information and the tools to help them quit smoking completely and forever.

PHE has always been very clear on its commitment to providing up to date information on the emerging evidence on e-cigarettes, as shown in the recent review which is the third in this area in the last 2 years. This commitment drove PHE and Cancer Research UK to set up the UK E-cigarette Research Forum. PHE is honouring its longstanding promise to monitor and share the evidence, providing clear messages to the public.

There is no circumstance in which it is better for a smoker to continue smoking – a habit that kills 1 in every 2 and harms many others, costing the NHS and society billions every year. We will continue to share what we know and address what we don’t yet know, to ensure clear, consistent messages for the public and health professionals.

Public Health England

Action on Smoking and Health

Association of Directors of Public Health

British Lung Foundation

Cancer Research UK

Faculty of Public Health

Fresh North East

Public Health Action (PHA)

Royal College of Physicians

Royal Society for Public Health

Tobacco Free Futures

UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies

UK Health Forum

Yes I am aware that this petition site is not a survey tool. But I had a very successful previous petition to get the vote for 16 & 17 year olds in Scotland. It sought views and got them. The petition within three week had been taken up by the Scottish Parliament and a special debate was held when every single political party voted to get votes for young people at all elections in the future. I failed to convince David Cameron, BUT NO SURPRISES THERE.

You should no worries about me working with young people on these health topics, as I twice won UK wide health education awards for my work. Firstly for alcohol education and then on drugs education. The first was in collaboration with BBC's Radio One campaigns team. The second was for a booklet, Drugs, the facts you need to know, developed along with many young people, it was so successful that the Scottish Government paid for 50,000 copies and the then National Drug Help Line sent free copies to any young callers. That was the only booklet they ever distributed to young people.

Your last point is very helpful giving stats. about the smoking trends and deaths. now only around 12% of under 16's smoke, but those over 16 is increasing again. I believe that is because they want to use tobacco along with cannabis, when they could use it much more safely without tobacco and even by using vaporisers. Our government will not even contemplate that and have refused to do the research to prove if I am right.

You should not equate the introduction of e-cigs with the falling smoking rates as there is as yet to proof of that. 8 million in the UK are still smoking BUT 10 million have already quit, this happened long before e-cigs arrived. 90% quit with no assistance and certainly not by using e-cigs.

You ask what is my problem, it is that there is no proof yet that e-cigs stop people smoking, they appear to encourage those who are keen to quit to reduce their nicotine intake to lower levels and also to avoid the other nasties in fags, BUT it appears that very few who Vape actually give up nicotine altogether. My plea is to GET US THE REAL FACTS. DO THE RESEARCH AND MAKE SURE THAT THE E-CIGS INDUSTRY, NOT US THE TAX PAYERS HAVE TO FOOT THE BILL. I would be the first to shout from the rooftops if e-cigs did what is claimed, stop people smoking altogether.

Remember too that there are currently no laws in place to control the quality or safety of e-cigs, no training for those that sell the products, anyone who likes can buy the products off the internet, and sell them from the back of their car, to anyone that wants to have them, including children. SURELY THAT IS NOT SENSIBLE?

Unlike medicines which have clear instruction on how to use them, what are appropriate doses, what known side effects might cause the user problems, and what happens if you mix one drug (nicotine) with another. The last thing the e-cigs and tobacco companies want is for them to be offered as medicine as they then would have to come clear and tell us how safe e-cigs are.

In 2010 the combined profits of the six leading tobacco companies was $35 billion. Equal to the combined profits of Coca-Cola, Microsoft and McDonalds.The biggest tobacco company in the world is China National Tobacco Corporation, they produced 2.1 trillion of the 5.9 trillion cigarettes produced in the world. All of these companies own parts of the e-cig producers and retailers. The tobacco companies need smoker to continue their addiction to nicotine to ensure future profits. profits are their business not public health. Do you get it?

Go to the Scottish Parliament's Health and Sport committee's consultation site to see what the tobacco companies are saying. They are against any regulation, against vending machines, against the licensing of retailers, against freely advertising their products. The only thing they conceded is that under 18's should not use them, but they don't say why. I suppose it is because they are dangerous? The wording of the tobacco companies submissions use words like could and may, to qualify their comments on do e-cigarettes assists people to stop smoking. I rest my case as they say.

bit cheeky, sexist and pointless I think.

I can sleep like a baby at night because i have no blood on my hands. The same could not be said of the immoral tobacco industry people who sell a product that uses nicotine to addict people, have then added up to 4,000 different other chemicals to the mix and who know only too well that 50% of their adult users will die of smoking related diseases.

Check out who really owns the e-cig's business to follow that deathly trail further. As smokers quit, profits plummet, e-cigs are the way to stop that profit loss.

I remember reading about public health's hatred of all things connected to big tobacco, and the pint was made that if tobacco companies swapped from making fags to making ecigs what a wonderful thing that would be.

I find it hard to take anyone seriously who thinks that they are the reason 16 year olds got the vote in scotland.

I note with interest the wording of the statement you use. "Joint statement on e-cigarettes by Public Health England and other UK public health organisations.

We all agree that e-cigarettes are significantly less harmful than smoking". what does significantly less harmful mean? 10%, 50%, 95% or what. Another recent report in the press said it was 1,000 times less harmful?

These statements from hefty academic reports get reported in the media and then the public turn them into myths. Like "that e-cigs are 95% safer than smoking" "that e-cigs are 95% more successful at helping quitters to stop smoking" Both of these myths were related to me by a salesman in retailers selling e-cigs products.

Another of your quotes from Public Health England was "To be clear, the public health opportunity is in helping smokers to quit, so we may encourage smokers to try vaping but we certainly encourage vapers to stop smoking tobacco completely" THAT TO ME SHOULD BE THE GOVERNMENT'S AIM.

You also used the quote "We should not forget what is important here. We know that smoking is the number one killer in England and we have a public health responsibility to provide smokers with the information and the tools to help them quit smoking completely and forever." I TOTALLY CONCUR WITH THAT.

I agree that the government's aim should be to stop people using tobacco completely. Using ecigs to get nicotine is not using tobacco. PHE are concerned about people continuing to smoke while using ecigs. They are not concerned about ex smokers vaping.

I've worked in drug intervention for years and I find the OP's attitude frightening.