e-cigarettes debate

[Weechancer]

The Scottish Parliament Health & Sport committee is holding a public consultation on e-cigs so i have started a change.org.uk petition to open up this debate.

MNHQ has edited this post as petition links and such must be posted in our Petitions board, however for those who are interested it is easy to find from the information above

This I fear is a fun, but unhelpful diversion, from addressing the two, far more important aspects of the smoking cessation problem. The COST of smoking and WHY people need to smoke?

So, you have not read any of the information then! Had you done so you would have read official estimates of the financial and physical costs of smoking and the underlying issues with quitting, which includes some of the innumerable reasons for smoking, usually reduced to peer pressure, stress and anxiety or it having been socially normalised NONE OF WHICH IS NEW!

You may find it fun, you may enjoy deliberately and erroneously concatenating myriad problems in the mistaken belief it makes you sound as though you have a point (I'll say again, it does not, it just makes you sound deranged out of touch).

Though your little conspiracy theory did cause a wry smile: government coffers saved by the advent of ecigs, that is indeed a headline worthy of the Daily Fail

Sadly though, the hard core of seriously addicted, reluctant quitters, will always, like any addict, seek cheaper alternatives.

Why sadly when, in this specific instance, your 'hard core addict' will be reaping financial, social and health benefits by doing so. Surely one who believes in harm reduction cannot fail to be impressed by such a happening? And vaping - remember that, your supposed focus on this thread? - will only become a black market issue if the current legislation is passed and the clear message of the ecig industry are ignored. If they are heeded then yes, the government will be able to levy some control, including taxation, so that too would be a win : win situation!

As for your generous offer of educating us as to the reasons behind addiction, please don't! The reasons are fairly well understood by even the least interested layman

smokingsides.com/docs/whysmoke.html from 1947 fully understood the double whammy of physiological and psychological addiction

healthliteracy.worlded.org/docs/tobacco/Unit1/introduction.html Back in the 90s the issue of addiction to smoking was a formal health care educational issue, multi lingual too!

Look at the title of Unit 3 healthliteracy.worlded.org/docs/tobacco/Unit3/1why_people_smoke.html

health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/smoking-cessation/10-reasons-people-start-smoking.htm Maybe this is simple enough

I would add more, but as most of my clients understand the reason behind their addiction I don't think it would be all that useful to bang that gong much more.

I live in hope that the Dalai Lama’s free happiness classes or Mindfulness Meditation, become our new addictions! But is that just the dreamer in me?

No that's the arse in you. Sounds like my idea of hell.

I've just been sitting outside in the glorious autumn sunshine with a lovely cup of hot, strong coffee, blowing pretty little sunlit vape clouds up into the trees. Bliss

I fucking love nicotine and I have no intention of giving it up.

and some smokers have moved to the ever cheaper drug alcohol, and the even cheaper alternatives, of illicit drugs, like cannabis, cocaine and the new “Legal High’s”.

Myth eleventy billion: Tobacco is now so expensive that smokers are turning to alcohol and crack instead
Truth: What the actual fuck??

Is cocaine actually cheaper than nicotine?

I suppose it might be, depending on how you get your nicotine and how comprehensively cut your coke is!

Man, the blind arrogance of coming to a forum and lecturing women, implying they're bad mothers, ignoring all their well thought out posts and waving your (questionable) credentials around to shut people up. Bugger off OP.

Cersei - where on Earth are your manners, dear?

Apologise, this instant! Or I will 'hun' you to the ends of the forum

And lolling forever that people who struggle to afford smoking will hit the crack instead. I know when I've been skint I hit the crack.

head tilt at OurBlanche

Sure have and prohibition does not work, but try telling that the this Government.

Enjoy the sun, You have every right to do what you want with your body. All the best.

You too Max, hope you're getting the good weather up in Scotland as well.

Randomtiddles1
Perhaps this information from the American Food and Drug Administration might count as evidence? What do you think?

FDA report.
The number of kids smoking cigarettes is down—but the number using other tobacco products is way up. That’s the word from the 2014 National Youth Tobacco Survey (NYTS), co-conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
“This is the only nationally representative survey of middle and high school students that focuses exclusively on tobacco use,” says Benjamin J. Apelberg, Ph.D., branch chief of epidemiology at FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products.

Survey results provided a national snapshot of what tobacco products today’s middle and high school youth are using, as well as emerging trends over time.

The key findings include:

In 2014, one in four high school students and one in 13 middle school students reported being tobacco users (using one or more tobacco products in the previous 30 days).
Of the then-current 4.6 million youth tobacco users, 2.4 million reported using e-cigarettes.
Between 2011 and 2014, the percentage of students reporting current use of cigarettes decreased from 15.8% to 9.2%.
Between 2011 and 2014, hookah use among high school students doubled and e-cigarette use increased even more dramatically.
In 2014, nearly 2.2 million students reported using two or more tobacco products.
Since the survey started collecting data on e-cigarettes in 2011, in 2014 their current use for the first time surpassed current use of every other tobacco product, including conventional cigarettes.
“One thing the study confirms for us is that the tobacco product landscape has changed dramatically,” Apelberg says. “Middle and high school kids are using novel products like e-cigarettes and hookahs in unprecedented numbers, and many are using more than one kind of tobacco product.”

It’s something of a good news/bad news picture, says FDA epidemiologist Catherine Corey. “While we’re glad to see cigarette smoking decreasing in middle and high school youth, the increase in the use of e-cigarettes and hookahs undermines progress in reducing tobacco use among kids,” she says.

So...kids are switching to e-cigs instead of fags? That's 2.4 million healthier kids. Sounds pretty good to me.

Randomtiddles1
Perhaps the evidence noted below will count as the sort of evidence you seek?

From American Food & Drug Administration.
The number of kids smoking cigarettes is down—but the number using other tobacco products is way up. That’s the word from the 2014 National Youth Tobacco Survey (NYTS), co-conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
“This is the only nationally representative survey of middle and high school students that focuses exclusively on tobacco use,” says Benjamin J. Apelberg, Ph.D., branch chief of epidemiology at FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products.
Survey results provided a national snapshot of what tobacco products today’s middle and high school youth are using, as well as emerging trends over time.
The key findings include:
• In 2014, one in four high school students and one in 13 middle school students reported being tobacco users (using one or more tobacco products in the previous 30 days).
• Of the then-current 4.6 million youth tobacco users, 2.4 million reported using e-cigarettes.
• Between 2011 and 2014, the percentage of students reporting current use of cigarettes decreased from 15.8% to 9.2%.
• Between 2011 and 2014, hookah use among high school students doubled and e-cigarette use increased even more dramatically.
• In 2014, nearly 2.2 million students reported using two or more tobacco products.
Since the survey started collecting data on e-cigarettes in 2011, in 2014 their current use for the first time surpassed current use of every other tobacco product, including conventional cigarettes.
“One thing the study confirms for us is that the tobacco product landscape has changed dramatically,” Apelberg says. “Middle and high school kids are using novel products like e-cigarettes and hookahs in unprecedented numbers, and many are using more than one kind of tobacco product.”
It’s something of a good news/bad news picture, says FDA epidemiologist Catherine Corey. “While we’re glad to see cigarette smoking decreasing in middle and high school youth, the increase in the use of e-cigarettes and hookahs undermines progress in reducing tobacco use among kids,” she says.

Welcome back, Max

We've already discussed this data here. Shall I copy and paste for you?

---------
'I think PHE have already covered the problems with the quality of data coming out of the US here. Their conclusions:

The most important feature of the NYTS data was the fall in smoking prevalence over the same period

and

These findings strongly suggest that EC use is not encouraging uptake of cigarette smoking (on the CDC findings).

You do understand that smoking is the actual problem, don't you?'

E cigarettes are not tobacco, Max.

Thing is, the FDA want to be allowed to regulate them so are trying to insist they are a 'tobacco product', even though they contain no tobacco. It's a battle that's been raging since 2009 when they seized two shipments of ecigs and then got told by a judge to give them back.

The 'deeming' regulations (where the FDA 'deem' ecigs to be tobacco products even though they aren't) are at the final negotiation stage now. I haven't kept up with the fine detail but the sorts of regulation they want to impose will, just like the TPD in Europe, ban pretty much everything on the market and hand what's left to the tobacco industry.

Max, this year's ecig summit has just been announced. Why don't you see if you can go along and have a proper chat with the experts in the field? It's quite pricey but maybe one of your drug orgs would pay for your place.

Last year they posted videos and slideshows of all the presentations so if you can't attend it's worth looking out for those.

Yes Max,
As has already been pointed out, calling e-cigs a "tobacco product" is the only way they get to link it with smoking in order to make the statistics sound dangerous. Similar really to calling a vedgetable a "chocolate product" so its consumption can be linked to rotting teeth ! It really should not be too difficult to see through that. What we are concerned about (or should be concerned about) is the relative risk/safety of vaping v smoking, and it seems pretty clear that having been referred to all the research to date, you simply don't believe it ! Not much point in trying to have a debate with someone who does that, I think. I am obviously wasting my time.

All the best,

Nick

Well this is nice

The majority of the contributors seem to be involved in the lobby for promoting e-cigs.

ODFOD. I am not affiliated with any kind of lobby for anything. It's amazing how, when people have switched to vaping, done the research and share that experience with others, they get accused of 'lobbying' when the other side have run out of arguments.

Some of those posting on the discussion seemed to have a glass of wine in one hand and their Vaping stick in the other.

Charming. So if we don't agree with you, we're all clearly druggie lushes?

Max, you've been given lots of links to evidence, you're just not reading or believing it. You seem to have some weird 'myth' agenda, whereas we're dealing here in studies and experience.

Anyway, it's back off to my crack den with a pint of vodka for me. Might neglect my child while I'm at it. Maybe kick a puppy or two.

(That was a joke, Max, btw, just in case you hadn't twigged)

Wow Max you've surpassed yourself. Everything you say is just rubbish - patronizing, ill-informed, blinkered rubbish. I'm so angry I could start on an expletive-ridden tirade but I will just join NiNoKuni in the crack den with the puppies.

Ah! So he did go back and misrepresent the thread to further his own ends. Max, that is really poor of you.

I did warn against such action earlier. It makes a mockery of everything you profess to believe. Why have you stooped so low? Why wreck your own petition? Why have you chosen to blatantly lie in order to further your aims?

If you had had a point, a real, based in evidence, you would never have had to do such a thing. You have only succeeded in showing yourself up to be a dishonest petitioner. Your own words give you the lie!

Why?

Actually what bugs me the most is the feigned shock that Mumsnet could treat him like this! Ye Gods they didn't just simper and agree with me! Women have their own opinions - well damnit they can't they must be being paid.

You sir are a scoundrel and a cad.

It's several things though - that what we believe are myths, and not oh say backed by evidence provided by Public Health England, to name but one source. Then there's that thing where Max can't get it through his skull that the e-cig industry is not the same as Big Tobacco and that it is a consumer-led innovation and market.

And then there's that nice little insinuation that, because Max feels we're aggressive, we must all be pissed as farts and mixing our uppers with downers, which is why we don't agree with him. Not on the basis of being much better informed or anything. Or him being disingenuous and having his own agenda that we've all seen before and are tired of since it's blatant misinformed tripe.

I mean, I've seen some shit in my time but this really does take the spacebiscuit.