e-cigarettes debate

[Weechancer]

The Scottish Parliament Health & Sport committee is holding a public consultation on e-cigs so i have started a change.org.uk petition to open up this debate.

MNHQ has edited this post as petition links and such must be posted in our Petitions board, however for those who are interested it is easy to find from the information above

Yes typing in capitals is shouting op

I for one am finding hard to follow your point of view because you start talking about Buckfast monks and crack cocaine.

Perhaps keeping to the point would be helpful.

I am working on a bar, we sell Jaeger Bombs. These are JagerMeister mixed with an energy drink. We sold loads last night. The customers who caused problems were drinking beer.
I fail to see how arguing that caffeine is a harmful substance when added to alcohol is relevant to e-cigarettes.

In a bar even.

Reply to Dollytwat,
Thanks for clarifying that typing in capitals is seen as shouting, I did not know that,and apologise if it offended anyone. I don't believe in winning arguments by shouting.

Your point about sticking to the point is more difficult because if you look back through this discussion other posters, have introduced other arguments to try to illustrate or win their case.

I have worked in the addiction field since 1965 when I worked with heroin addicts in Harlem, New York. I have been a member of the board of Scottish Drugs Forum for 21 years, twice won uk aware for my drug education work for children and young people, on alcohol and then drugs. My drugs booklet was the only one ever distributed free by the national drugs helpline to kids. It was paid for by the Scottish Government.

One thing we must all understand about drug use is that it is all interrelated. Caffeine, nicotine, pain killers, anti-depressants, stimulants, hallucinogens and now the so called Legal High's about which we know very little as they change by the week., over-the -counter drug and prescription drugs.

I started this discussion on Mumsnet because I presumed that it's members were interested in the welfare of children and young people, perhaps not, as nobody has as yet made any reference to them.

E-cigs are but the latest innovation in drug use by millions of people. Regardless of what many of those contributing this discussion are saying, the full facts about how safe e-cigs and the likes, are is still unknown. If you view what tobacco companies and e-cig companies have submitted to the Scottish Parliament's consultation on this. None of them claim their products are safe. They all say things like, e-cigs " may, could, might assist people to stop smoking" Even these multi-national companies, with their vested interest in selling their products are not yet prepared to confirm how safe they are. That is why I am running my petition to insist that these companies should fund, completely independent, academic research into the facts and safety of their products. These same companies have also asked the Scottish Government not to license them, not to ban selling their products in vending machines, not toe strict in any way they advertising of their products. The only thing they agree with is to restrict them to under 18's - why? Presumably because they are dangerous to under 18's but not to over 18"s, Hmmm!

Funnily enough, just yesterday I visited an e-cig retailer in the centre of Glasgow, after a very brief discussion both of the owners said they agreed with me that we need to get to the bottom of the the true facts, because then they could expand their business in the knowledge that what they were selling was safe. They also admitted that if they had to comply with regulations on the safety of their products, they would have to close tomorrow as they couldn't.

I hope you don't think i have digressed too much again.

Your point about sticking to the point is more difficult because if you look back through this discussion other posters, have introduced other arguments to try to illustrate or win their case.

OK, lets stick to nicotine. What are the harms of nicotine? Don't bring in stuff about smoking, we all know the harms of that. Nicotine on its own.

You started this thread with a 'myth': Myth 1 = E-cigs have a different type of Nicotine, so are safer than tobacco?

Having read everyone's posts (you HAVE read people's posts, haven't you?) do you now concede that:

a) This is a straw man - nobody except you has said they contain a different sort of nicotine
b) Ecigs are much, much safer than lit tobacco for other reasons entirely - i.e. there is no combustion, therefore no carbon monoxide or tar.

Won't somebody think of the children?

OP as a PP has mentioned in fact the "industry" has crowd funded research into e-cigs. And you have also been pointed to this review:

www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review

I'm not sure what it is exactly that you want? Addiction is generally not considered a Good Thing owing to health and/or societal costs, but I honestly fail to see that nicotine in vaping form has those costs.

I would kiss the feet of the people who came up with ecigs if I could! Or at least the feet of the coworker that introduced me to them.

I used to be a heavy smoker. I used one for about six months and after gradually reducing the dosage quit completely. So did Dp.

Most of the people in my old workplace use them instead of smoking cigarettes. The others used them to quit.

I have worked in the addiction field since 1965 when I worked with heroin addicts in Harlem, New York. I have been a member of the board of Scottish Drugs Forum for 21 years, twice won uk aware for my drug education work for children and young people, on alcohol and then drugs. My drugs booklet was the only one ever distributed free by the national drugs helpline to kids. It was paid for by the Scottish Government.

I genuinely find it disturbing that someone with this amount of experience has so little understanding of harm reduction.

You also appear to be a staunch believer in 'gateway' theories. Maybe you've been retired for a long while and haven't noticed that your field has moved on considerably in its understanding of these issues. There was a great article published a couple of days ago which discussed gateway theories, especially in relation to the supposed 'gateway' from vaping to smoking:

Gateway models began in the 1950s when drug enforcement authorities warned that marijuana use caused deadly heroin use, which has not been found to be true.

Just as trying beer and liking it (or not) might incline one to try liquor (or not), prior use of one nicotine product can influence use of other nicotine products.

Drug research emphasizes so-called “common liability models” in which personal and contextual factors are taken into account as determinants of use or nonuse of products. While “products” themselves can influence the likelihood of using other products, it is important to consider “persons” as a factor determining use.

For example, if religious beliefs contribute to some teenagers not drinking alcohol, not smoking cigarettes, not using e-cigarettes, and at the same time lack of religious beliefs incline other teenagers to do these things, one would see an association between using these various products. Such an association is caused both by factors that influence nonuse of products as well as factors that influence use.

You want 100% proof that something is 100% safe. Nothing is 100% safe but as a 14 year old I would have been better off taking up vaping rather than smoking cigarettes - and I knew for certain cigarettes could kill me, or at least make me very ill. But I did it anyway. And no I wouldn't encourage my DSs to vape (when they're older) but I'd rather they did that than smoked.

Exactly pubes (may I call you pubes? ) - I have also read about addiction theory, partly because I seemed immune to substance addiction (except Diet Coke/caffeine). I've read some really interesting stuff on why some people can take a drug and then just go back to their normal lives - I read that on the whole it depends how settled their normal lives are.

i live in the Netherlands by the way, which has a very more relaxed attitude to drugs of all sorts - and tbh teenagers for the most part don't get legless, don't get stoned and don't smoke. In fact, it's a very family-orientated and really quite sober society. So there you go.

That is why I am running my petition to insist that these companies should fund, completely independent, academic research into the facts and safety of their products.

If they fund these studies, those studies would de facto not be completely independent, would they?

Research has been done by independent scientists and you can check some of it out here.

These same companies have also asked the Scottish Government not to license them, not to ban selling their products in vending machines, not toe strict in any way they advertising of their products.

Licensing e-cigs as medical products comes with a whole host of problems, such as taking all the fun out of it, only having a limited range of products available and a limited range of options within that. Also, if licensing was introduce only Big Tobacco would be able to afford the licenses. Vendors would have to run expensive tests on each single flavour they make and each single strength of nicotine it would be available in. It would put all the small independent vendors straight out of business and all that money would go to BT. Put that in your e-pipe and vape it.

It is a bit of a tricky situation, and there may not be terribly easy answers, but I don't want to see vaping options limited and I don't want to see BT taking over either. Blanket-banning them is not an answer. Treating them like fags is not an answer either.

Also, you do know Big Tobacco didn't invent e-cigs, right? I mean, we've all said it enough times.

The only thing they agree with is to restrict them to under 18's - why? Presumably because they are dangerous to under 18's but not to over 18"s, Hmmm!

For the same reason we restrict alchohol, voting and other things to over-18s - only adults are capable of making decisions about what to do with their lives and bodies. No, a 17.5 year old's body doesn't really metabolise alcohol or nicotine or caffeine or anything much differently to an 18 year old's. There isn't a switch that flips on your 18th birthday. But this is the age our country has decided you are old enough to decide on your own what to do about your own self.

I started this discussion on Mumsnet because I presumed that it's members were interested in the welfare of children and young people, perhaps not, as nobody has as yet made any reference to them.

Oh this is shoddy! You started this discussion with a bullshit petition and a bullshit 'myth'. 180 posts in, you're not getting the responses you want so you pull out the 'but you're mummeees! Think of the chiiildreen!' card.

MN is made up of predominantly mothers, some fathers and quite a few people of both sexes who do not have children. We discuss all sorts of things from all sorts of angles. Whole threads go by without children being mentioned because mothers are actual people with a wide variety of interests. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't be here, despite having children myself. But let's have a look at this thread, shall we?

Agent Cooper: All shops in my area have a no under-18s rule too.

Me (quoting PHE): there is no evidence so far that e-cigarettes are acting as a route into smoking for children or non-smokers

me again: Every year, an estimated 207,000 young people start smoking in the UK. One third to one half of them will become regular smokers. Of those who become long term smokers, half will die prematurely, losing on average a decade of life. Smoking rates among young people are falling rapidly - hooray! Over exactly the same timescale that ecigs have become popular - also hooray! WTF is your problem?

IsabelleEberhardt: And when my daughter is older, if she wants to experiment, I would prefer she tried vaping to smoking.

Me again: If you're worried about children, from October, sales of ecigs to under 18's in England will be banned. Scotland will almost definitely follow the same route. Meanwhile 2/3 of smokers started smoking as children. As someone who works with young people would it not have been more productive to start a campaign to make bying actual cigarettes harder for children?

gamerchick: Fuxache OP if you really want to help young people turn your attentions to legal highs which make mild mannered people fight with the strength of ten men on the way to the cells.

ginmakesitallok: There is no evidence to support your assertion that non-smoking children are taking up vaping.

WeAllFloat: And, frankly....if kids are trying to take up vaping as its now the 'cool' thing to do, good! If you offered my kids a choice between thinking coffee or fags were cool, I'd rather them get a hardcore caffeine habit before I'd let them smoke. I'd rather they vaped all day long than live with second hand smoke. I'd rather they vaped and ate a healthy diet rather than live on chips but not smoke. Vaping as a parent, doesn't worry me a much as bullying, stds, tattoos, ill fitting shoes and a whole list of other things.

Me (quoting PHE): The current national evidence is that in the UK regular e-cigarette use is almost exclusively confined to those young people who smoke, and youth smoking prevalence is continuing to fall. This is an area that we will continue to research and keep under closest surveillance. In October this year, regulations to protect children will make it an offence to sell e-cigarettes to anyone under 18 or to buy e-cigarettes for them and within a year the EU Tobacco Products Directive proposes a ban on all print and broadcast advertising of e-cigarettes as part of a full range of regulations.

This is just from the first third of the thread. You can go back and read the rest yourself. You obviosly didn't the first time round.

My son is a vaper. He started smoking aged 15. I was overjoyed when he switched 18 months ago.

I've read some really interesting stuff on why some people can take a drug and then just go back to their normal lives - I read that on the whole it depends how settled their normal lives are.

Yes! I read something similar but can't remember for the life of me where it was. For the record, I smoked for 15 years and have never tried heroin or crack. I recognise that this is probably due to the fact that I am privileged enough to never have needed it (for whatever reason).

No I can't remember either NiNo - I have tried many drugs (though not the 2 you've mentioned) and enjoyed it thoroughly on the whole. I am of course a proper grown up now. But no I never developed an addiction - I wasn't really addicted to smoking either.

And no I didn't try them because I smoked - I smoked and took drugs for the same reasons - youthful curiosity and, for want of a better word, 'fashion'

Did you read ECITA's submission OP? (ECITA is the Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association). It's all sensible stuff.

Licencing ecigs as medicines isn't even what's being consulted on.

My sense of smell is already normalising, just picked up the clothes I was wearing last night and by God, yuck!
I'm of the opinion that there has been a ton of good information on this thread, provided by lots of different people but the OP's posts have come across as ranty hyperbole.

Buckets is now loaded with caffein as is Redbull and other energy drinks which are causing big brooms in our schools.

Are you drunk?

Fantastic Room101, well done Don't worry if you slip and have a few fags in the early stages. Most people 'dual fuel' for a while before completely switching. Just keep counting the ones you don't smoke.

Do you have a spare battery to use while the other one is charging?

Nope, ahh, hadn't thought of that. Back to the shop I guess!!

Woke up around eleven, so would have had two or three fags normally by now...

You could muddle through for a few days. The small batteries don't take that long to charge anyway and after a few days you'll have extra fag savings and can get something bigger and shinier But yes, spares is the next thing to think about once you've established that vaping is likely to work for you. Get a spare tank and/or coils while you're there too.

On holiday this weekend so will not have time to address all of the recent fascinating posts, but will do on Monday.

Glad to have opened up the debate, lots of amazing food for thought.

I am trying hard not to let the personal digs at me hurt too much. After all none of you know much about me and I certainly do not know any of you. One of the downsides of the social media is that people can say things in writing that they would not do to someone face to face.

Finally sorry for any typo's - i am dyslexic but try my best.