SAHM vs Working Mum - debate here please!

[jackstarbright]

O.k go for it! You know you want to...

Oh look.

Here it is

One point to consider is that for certain occupations/careers, once you leave the workplace for an extended period of time e.g. 1-3 years, it is almost impossible to get back in because of loss of accrediatation/being deemed as away from the work environment for too long and having lost essential hands-on experience and not being up-to-date.

For some working mothers, it isn't as simple as taking a few years out. If they do, they know that in all probability they cannot return to jobs they take great satisfaction in.

I have friends who were handed a five- year 'career break' and then returned to work after that. It seems a very sensible way if handling employees with small
children. You have the security of knowing your job is safe but can still concentrate on the kids while they are tiny.

Understand this isn't practical for some careers though - medicine etc

I'm in revolt against authoritarian views at the moment (including my own).

I don't believe that people of either gender should stay at home because they've become parents.

I do believe that people who stay at home can be materially disadvantaged for many years (lost earnings, lost seniority, lost pension contributions, lost focus) and that the years lost are disproportionate to the years spent out of the workplace. A couple of years out of the workplace can set you back five years.

I do believe that it is a risky strategy for potentially high earners to stay at home and be financially dependent upon another partner in view of the prevalence of divorce. The same is not true for moderate earners.

I guess that the point that I am trying to make is that certain working mothers have to work just to be able to do the jobs they love in the future.

Spot on, Harried.

Maybe instead of bashing eachother we could discuss something positive.

Maybe we could talk about how to ensure that mothers are felt more valued. Lets talk about ways that we can support eachother better.

"These debates rage on an on because both types of mother feel undervalued and criticised by society for different reasons."

Excellent point.

Harried I agree with you - that the wages / seniority/ career progression we lose are disproportionate to the time spent out of the workplace. We must change the workplace.

I think pre school children benefit from having a parent at home as close to full time as you can economically manage. I think primary school children benefit from having a parent who is flexible enough to be there to drop the children off, pick them up, help out in school, attend plays, appointments, sports days etc. I think family life runs better if one person is able to be at home before the other to do the chores so that family time is not absorbed by housework.

Beyond the time of breastfeeding there is no reason why this should be a woman, or even why it has to be one parent or the two parents sharing the role.

The first time around I was the person who stayed at home, mostly because dp was not around until dd was 2 and I was also not well enough to work.

I returned to work part time when dd was 4 and we had a year where we both worked full time. We were crap parents beacuse of it. I used to bundle dd in a car at half six in the morning to go to my mum's and would start worka few minutes later ( my school was at the end of the road). Sometimes dp would pick up dd from nursery at half five and I would get home for about half six, seven. I would then sneak a quick meal before dong some housework and working until late in the evening. Dp would spend his evening looking after dd, doing housework. Our lives were chaotic, dd was ignored by me and there were real problems between me and dd and me and dp.

We were bad parents, but I was no worse of a parent than dp. As a family unit we were failing dd. This was made worse by the fact that I have an illness which means there are times when I need support and I get tired very easily.

We addressed it by both of us making changes it is not just down to the woman.

I now work in a less challenging school and took a demotion. I now have one day a week where I do not work, no matter how much I have on. Sometimes I break this but I have to do that in a manner that does not affect dd. SO this morning I was up at 5 working while everyone else was asleep. Dp now works from home, part time and now does a good 90% of the housework. He works entirely around dd. He picks her up, drops her off, attends all the school events etc.

It has not been easy, we have less money to live on. Last year we had a lot of money problems and there were times we nearly lost everything and we struggled to put food on the table. But we knew it would be worth it. Neither of us are on huge wages, I am on a teacher wage and dp as he is part time beings in less than me. One of the sacrifices was having our own home. We are now in a rented house, although I hope that in a few years we may have saved enough to buy.

I think we are now bloody good parents, but that has been achieved by looking honestly at what we were doing wrong and facing it as a team, rather than dp saying to me "You woman stay at home , me man go out to work."

I work full time and am a bloody good mother, because I am part of a team.

wastwinset: Your post shows a great deal of insight, and you have clearly worked through a lot of things to reach the point you're at now, which is great.

However, I don't necessarily agree that pre-school age children are somehow 'better off' by having one parent around full time or pretty much full time. It's too complex an issue, with too many variables to make a judgement. For some families it may be best, but not all. I worked part time when my children were very small, but that was my choice, for my own benefit to make life easier, rather than for some perceived benefit to anyone else. I think we also need to remember that school age is a totally arbitrary thing anyway, and varies from country to country.

I think all we can is make the best decision we can at any given time within the limitations placed on us.
I am very happy as someone who has pretty much always been a WOHM, but I would never try to claim that my way is 'better' or that my children are any more clever or successful because of it. The only claims I will make, are those that are to do with me and which are undeniable - I have benefited hugely from the intellectual stimulation and the social aspects of working, the money is great (not for skiing holidays or handbags - they don't float my boat, but to enable us to travel, buy a lovely property, books, meals out etc) and the pension is absolutely definitely worth having. Any other benefits are simply a by-product.

I think the whole debate is unnecessary to be honest. Most women now will be SAHM (while on mat leave if not otherwise), PT working and FT working so will space that in whatever way works best for their family, emotionally, practically and financially.

I am currently on M/L with DS and will go back to work part time when he is 14 months old - I have saved holiday to take etc. I will have been at home for 2 out of 3 of DD's years. I don't think I am very good at being a SAHM and it all actually works much better when I am working. I pay for a cleaner and all the time at home is playing / reading/ talking to the DCs.

I also have to work as DH will be unable to work for at least a year in the near future -= necessary medical treatment which is horrible. He is unlikely to be well enough to do childcare and it would be stupid for both of us to risk professional careers and go on the dole when DD is nearly off to school anyway and we have a lot of family support and a brilliant CM. I certainly wouldn't give up a job I like and am good at (with a final salary pension) to meet someone else's view of a good mother.

"I think family life runs better if one person is able to be at home before the other to do the chores so that family time is not absorbed by housework"

I'm not sure about this statement. If everyone in the family is able to pitch in, then family time shouldn't be absorbed by housework, it should just be a minor slice of the time available [pigs will fly emoticon, but YKWIM]. I tend to think that housework should be run on the old marxist principle of "from each according to his abilities" IE people should do what they are capable of. I don't see why one person in the household should be nominated for freeing up the family time for all the other family members and I don't think that's a necessarily more efficient way of divvying up the time.

It's very nice for all the other members of the household, if one person has done all the shit domestic work so that they can enjoy quality family time together, but I'm very dubious about that as a principle, tbh. My DC's would love it if I did that (and sometimes I do because it's easier) but tbh I don't want them to feel entitled to have free family time without their input into the boring bit of making leisure possible by doing work. And I also don't want to do be the one who is seen as responsible for that - we all live here, we're all responsible for keeping it clean and tidy, within the bounds of our abilities.

Violet, I totally acknowledge that famiies are different and that you will never find an answer that suits every family.

I agree about the arbitary school age as well, my dd was a very grown up september baby, she was over ready for school, hence I went to work part time in the Jan before she started school. She loved nursery, and I was lucky that my school had a nursery. My dd also went to nursery for a few hours 2 days a week from the age of 2 ( i think) and she loved it.

Herbeatitude maybe I should have said our family life runs better with dp working part time and doing most of the housework. I tend to cook for dd and I when I get in and then clear the mess that creates. I also do the washing and ironing but he does everything else. I come home to a calm ordered house and that works for us. Because I teach I can also do much more during the holidays at home, so it makes it less unfair.

juat skimmed thread, so apologies if DP has addressed this comment:

"
I didn't say all working women make bad mothers...I said women who work F/T...and that's only because they don't see alot of their dc.....how can you be good at something if you're never there..?"

so by that logic, your DH is not a good father, because he works full time..

what a load of tosh

If you don't think about what is best for your family as a whole, and blindly do whatever you (and your DP) want to do, regardless of consequences, then that is very BAD.

If you spend a good deal of time (as most WOHM and SAHMs do) considering what is best for your particular family, how you can ensure a secure and loving life for your children, whilst also ensuring that you and your DP are also happy, then that is a GOOD thing.

It doesn't matter what decision you make, it matters whether that decision is right for YOUR family.

Disclaimer: this obviously only relates to those of us who are lucky enough to have a choice!

My dh is a very good father, he spends as much time as he can with our dc, but he does have money to earn so can't be here as much as he'd like....I know he likes me being here all the time, he would never let me put our children in a nursery.

Aitch....I will define career women a bit better..

It's a woman who puts more effort into her job than she does her dc...that could be the woman at tesco who doesn't go home untill the fruit aisle looks perfect, or the woman at the ad agency who stays behind till 9pm most nights of the week....

but you're right...most sahm couldn't give a toss about working women...me included..

Plus I think that advert was designed to provoke a debate...not to cause offence.....if it had said,

"women who stay at home are bad mothers"

I would have just laughed....

Well I don't know any woman who puts 'more effort' into her job than her children. So bang goes your little theory.

I also totally disagree with your statement that you couldn't give a toss about WOHM. Anyone genuinely happy and secure in their position wouldn't keep posting such extreme, bitter posts.

Read my earlier post. I think you do care. I bet you are frustrated and bored, low in confidence and wish that everything about your family was better so that it could justify your decision to stay home! I bet you're really pissed off that other women go to work and their kids are just as happy and well adjusted as yours!

Crikey Violethill...you know how to put the cyber boot in don't you..

ouch...

I went through a phase of putting more effort into my job than my child. I did think that I was doing the right thing by earning more money. I grew up in povery and it was shit, I did not want that for my daughter. But the more absent I made myself the harder it was to become involved and so it goes on. But I know that I was being at best misguided and at worst selfish.

Why is it up to your husband? Do you not have an equal say?

Undercova I agree

he likes oyu being thre , he would not let you put the kids in a nursery and what about what you want?

i don't buy it, you can't sayu he's a good father and works full time, but a woman who works full time isn't

plenty of families need two incomes, not for holidays and cars, but for heating, food, shoes, the basics.

your world view seems so small and narrow

Lulumama - she's BNP. Enough said.

my mum got hate mail for going to work in the 70s - thought we had moved on

though dp does seem to like to take the contrary view on anything really

I think in an ideal world you choose a mate who balances you out. I did this second time around. Perhaps daftpunk has also done this.

My partner is not motivated by money , he is not particularly ambitious and sees work as a means to an end. He has an army background and is very disciplined. This discipline helps him run an ordered calm house. When I was at home full time I was very good at taking dd out, playing with her, baking (all the fun stuff) but lacked the self control to actually get the housework done. He also likes his own company and is very self sufficient so does not mind being at home in a very isolated position

I am very ambitious, I crave adult company and love working. I am crap at housework and hate doing it. My illness and perhaps personality means that I tend to work very very hard for about five weeks and then burn out and need to do very little for a week or so. I have tried not to be like that but it just doesn;t work. To be a full time parent you need to be consistent. Teaching suits me to the ground. I used to be very money motivated, am less so now, but I am a worrier so being the major breadwinner suits me. I am also very good at my job.

We are lucky I guess that we are free to be who we want to be in our relationship. Although it is not all luck, I chose dp because of the way he is.

I think it must be very hard to be in a family where you both have full on jobs. There are times when I come home from work and need to work straight through until midnight. If we both had to do that what would happen to dd?

I am also lucky that because as a teacher I have regular holidays where I can then be more hands on at home and dp can focus on work. For example during the upcoming half term dp is abroad on business.

I think being able to expliot what each partner is good at, is the key to getting it as close to right as you can. But beyond the time of breastfeeding gender is irrelevant. Of course this is not the case for single parents.

I never understand why women are so hard on other women! I think that people are very insecure and so are out to prove that they are good mothers and so they must be right, whether WOHM or SAHM. I feel very privileged that I was able to have the first 5 yrs at home with all my DSs. I loved it and it suited my personality-it doesn't suit all women and they can be just as good mothers. The earth mother type who 'devotes' themselves to the DC can be a lousy mother or an excellent mother and the career woman, who organises full time childcare, can be a lousy mother or an excellent mother. Most people fall between the 2 extremes and there is far more to being a mother than physically being there 24/7. You also have to bear in mind that DCs are so different that one DCs 'perfect' mother would be another DCs 'nightmare' mother!
It is a silly debate with no 'right' answer.