We are considering circumcision........

[fustilarian]

For our 3 month old son who is half jewish, but the wrong half. My partner is circumcised and would like his son to be too, but is not adamant if I don't want to do it.

I see that it is a very heated topic on mumsnet.

I think that the procedure without anaesthetic is clearly barbaric and horrifying. With anaesthetic it carries risks too, but would you anti-circumcision lobby say it is barbaric done in this way? If so, why?

Bonsoir your views are really very old fashioned. There is a huge body of medical evidence piling up that circumcision for non-medical reasons is not desirable.

"The American Medical Association stated in 1999: "Virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and support the provision of accurate and unbiased information to parents to inform their choice."

That's true ABD but very few boys growing up in Britain and attending secular/Christian schools are likely to be the only one - there is probably going to be a mix of foreskins and not here. Much like the men I've slept with . And actually I don't think the 'I'm going to mutilate my child because everyone else does' argument is a very strong one tbh.

I've lived in the States and as sophable says, there is a much greater move away from circumcision as a matter of course nowadays. I don't know anyone who has had their DSs circumcised except for my Jewish friends. A generation ago, it would have been a very different picture.

sophable - religion is old-fashioned!

This is interesting. OP you state that your Jewish male family members are happy and proud of their circumcised status...however...why wouldn't they be? I mean, I have come to terms with a lot of things that have happened to me over the years and grown to accept them as part of my history and life. Plus I doubt any parent would inflict circumcision with the intention to cause pain, over and above just wanting their child to be accepted into their culture.

I bet if those same men had NOT been circ'ed, they would be equally happy and proud of that iyswim? You learn to accept your life and how you were raised by loving parents. If your parenst decide not to circ you because they are worried it will hurt and cause you distress, then you will; be proud and happy about that.

As an aside I had a partner who was circ'ed for medical reasons, and he resented it as an adult, because he could feel very little sexually - especially if he wore a condom.

That kind of negates the argument that it's good for women's sexual health...! Or did in our case.

I'm generally extremely against cutting bits off a child if there's no medical reason - and we narrowly escaped a referral for circ, when ds1 had a few problems down there, but the other GP said 'stop using bubble bath' and it solved it - she said most parents don't know or believe that bubble bath is the reason for many of these issues. I was so grateful to her.

...and I'm afraid I do see it as a bit of a continuum - ie a man is performed this ritual on, he suffers but is told it makes him a proper Jewish man etc etc, his friends suffer it also...

he rationalises it and then teaches his own son that it is fine and normal and even if it hurts, should be performed on him in turn.

It reminds me of that African tribe that forced a teenage girl to have sex with a grown man as part of her 'initiation' - she was screaming and crying all the way and the elder women just laughed at her

It's been happening for thousands of years and is an important part of cultural identity. I would have it done personally.

does the same hold for female circumcision kitty in your view. that too has been carried out for thousands of years. and if not what is the difference in your opinion.

Thinking people gradually abandon the worst bits of religion and hold onto some of the minor stuff for cultural identity reasons. Male circumcision (contrary to what a lot of posters seem to think) is fairly innocuous and a very discreet badge of belonging/sign of tribal identity. That's why it continues.

A bit like me wanting to go to the odd carol service.

I agree Carol services are innocuous - can't say the same for slicing off the end of your son's penis, oddly enough!

I'm an uncircumcised man and, as such, I have an intimate () knowledge of both how sensitive the foreskin is and how useful it is. It's not just any old piece of skin. It's a nerve-rich mucous membrane much like the clitoral hood and it's there for a reason.

Unless there is a clear medical reason for it having to be done, I see no moral difference between male circumcision and the "milder" forms of female circumcision (the more extensive female circumcision is worse, of course).

Let the owner of the genitals decide if parts of it should be sliced off.

I have had 2 baby boys done & seen lots of others. It hurts for a millisecond, then is sore when you change the nappy for 24 hours only, fine with calpol. Why dont you ask if you can go & watch a real one being done (not one put on youtube to horrify people.

Agree with ABD and Bonsoir here.
DS was born in the States before 1999, and was circumcised two days later. He was given a local anesthetic and the doc used the wrap thing for the operation. The nurse took him to the op room and he was back in my arms half an hour later, sleeping peacefully. He was not upset afterwards, fed and slept as before. (He was pretty quiet as babies go, personality-wise) Healing went very smoothly. I was advised to use plenty of vaseline at each nappy change, plus a little wrap of gauze, (a packet of gauze strips was supplied by the hospital) and there was never any of the scab peeling, etc., that one poster referred to. Circumcision was advised by my OB/GYN (who performed the operation -- it is not done by general surgeons as a rule in the US) for reasons of hygiene, cancer avoidance (penile cancer), and to help in preventing the spread of stds to any future sexual partners DS might have. In every case, except the hygiene consideration, the risk involved was slight. At that time no link had been made between AIDS/HIV prevention and circumcision.

I don't think the operation can be equated with female genital mutilation even both are often done as a rite of initiation or for cultural/religious reasons. Complete female genital mutilation removes a vital part of a girl's anatomy, whereas a boy can function well without a foreskin -- which is not 'the end' of a penis, but a piece of fairly loose skin at the end.

I remember noticing at the communal showers at the pool we went to for toddler swimming that there was only one boy in DD's swimming group who had not been circumcised, from a group of about 20 boys and girls using the showers. The chances of finding someone uncircumcised over the age of 12 are rather low, in the US and Canada, ime. Never asked DS about his experiences at the showers when he played high school sports, so I don't know anything about the yes or no count among his teammates. Ds has never mentioned his circumcision. I don't know how he feels about it. Maybe it helps that he grew up seeing himself as being in the circumcised majority? I think men who are deeply unhappy about theirs are probably in the minority and perhaps have other issues that contribute to their hostility towards their parents?

Sorry Nowwhatisit, I'm sure that's a wellmeant suggestion, but why the hell should a baby have other people watching an operation on its genitals to 'see what it's like'? Because children have to have others to give consent for them, I think you have to be conservative about giving that consent. That's what this is about IMO.

Jewish circimcision ritual involves close family witnesses and a party afterwards.

"fine after calpol"

ABetaDad I would differentiate people with a meaningful role in a prescribed ritual (even one I disagree with) and an existing relationship with the child, from people having a look at someone else's operation from a decision-making point of view.

I just find it absolutely unbelievable that we are having this conversation in the 21st century, to be honest.

'The men in my family have always have the ends of their penises sliced off, so we had the end of my son's penis sliced off, too.'

**
IT IS NOT THE 5TH CENTURY

It is not the end of the penis. It is the skin that surounds the end of the penis.

It is not like extreme female circmcision that involves rmeoval of the clitors which is effectivley the same as removing the end of the penis - which is horific mutiliation.

'clitoris'

It really isn't vital. A man can feel and function perfectly fine afterwards, whereas a girl who suffers a total mutilation is left without a clitoris, a vital part necessary for much sexual pleasure. I don't know where you're getting 'trivial' from. I just said 'not vital' and the two terms don't mean the same thing. Medical studies can be trotted out on both sides to back up anything, imo. The doctor who performed the op on my DS emphasised the risk was slight. There was no fear-mongering in his advice at the time, and I mentioned in my post that the doctor told me the risks were slight because I have no desire to spread any kind of panic either.

Does anyone remember that thread where some bloke wanted his baby circumcised, but wouldn't countenance it for himself ?

That's some poor attitude imo.