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Parenting

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We are considering circumcision........

196 replies

fustilarian · 01/12/2009 23:05

For our 3 month old son who is half jewish, but the wrong half. My partner is circumcised and would like his son to be too, but is not adamant if I don't want to do it.

I see that it is a very heated topic on mumsnet.

I think that the procedure without anaesthetic is clearly barbaric and horrifying. With anaesthetic it carries risks too, but would you anti-circumcision lobby say it is barbaric done in this way? If so, why?

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 02/12/2009 10:23

Actually, I think a large part of the point is (like christening) that it is the parents' decision, not the child's.

onebatmother · 02/12/2009 10:25

If that is the case - and I know it is not with Christening, in several churches - I am implacably opposed to this cultural practice.

Deadworm · 02/12/2009 10:27

And that is a large part of the reason why religious circumcision of an infant is wrong, Bonsoir. Of course I sympathise with the desire to bring up one's child within a tradition, especially one that has been so persecuted. But it is still reasonable to object to the imposition of a thing like this on a child too young to decide it for himself. Traditions can evolve.

Bonsoir · 02/12/2009 10:29

Circumcision only impacts the individual and his immediate family on a day-to-day level, and it really doesn't have any sort of negative impact on one's experience of life, so it is not a cultural practice that has ramifications for life in society at large. Hence it is relatively unimportant and I'm not sure why non-Jewish people have such strong feelings about it.

Jujubean77 · 02/12/2009 10:30

Christening is a ridiculous comparison, one can change the religion one is born into. Genital mutilation is painful, traumatic and irreversable, different on so many levels.

I wonder if the reason it is done when the boys are NON verbal is so they are unable to protest; as forcing a child who is vocally against it would be seen as more barbaric...just a thought

MrsMattie · 02/12/2009 10:32

Christening isn't a ridiculous comparison. I would rather have my child circumcised (which is isn't by the way) than have him brainwashed into the church.

I honestly hate these threads.

Bonsoir · 02/12/2009 10:32

There is very little difference at all between christening and circumcision. Early ritual introduction into a religion.

Deadworm · 02/12/2009 10:34

... except that one of them involves cutting off a functioning portion of a baby's penis and the other involves getting wet.

Bonsoir · 02/12/2009 10:34

I don't know why people are so against circumcision and wonder whether it is because they don't know anyone who is?

Jujubean77 · 02/12/2009 10:37

Presumably if you circumcise your child at a briss you will be following a religious practice? That could be argued as "brainwashing", as is the myth that it is "cleaner"?

zazen · 02/12/2009 10:38

Actually, Christening an infant is quite a recent event. Christians were presecuted, and to become a Christian was something only decided when an adult. Adult baptisms were the norm in the past.

It's just nowadays, as the number of christians has grown, and christians aren't persecuted for their faith, that children and babies are baptised.

However anointing with oil, and pouring water on someone does not involve irreversible physical damage, and leave disfigurement.

Bonsoir · 02/12/2009 10:40

LOL at "disfigurement" and "damage". Circumcised penises are neither disfigured nor damaged - they work very well and look rather tidier and more appetising than uncircumcised!

Jujubean77 · 02/12/2009 10:43

I knew a lot of gay guys who used to talk about this, apparently they loose a lot of sensitivity in that area when circumcised and some were actually quite upset about that. Just thinking back...

Bonsoir · 02/12/2009 10:44

Have you actually had sex with men who have been circumcised? Do you know the difference?

choosyfloosy · 02/12/2009 10:48

fusty, i was in much your situation - a ds, not Jewish and a Jewish father. Slightly different in that my DH himself had a Jewish father only, was brought up atheist and had converted via the Reform synagogue before we met. He was a fairly strong believer though only mildly active in the synagogue. We agreed to bring ds up as a Jewish boy.

We did have ds circumcised, rather later than it should be done by tradition, as we were waiting for an appointment with the person recommended by our rabbi- a doctor with years of experience who used anaesthetic etc.

I was influenced by feeling that ds was already going to struggle to be accepted as Jewish, and therefore that he needed to be as Jewish as possible IYSWIM. However, I fully understood that being circumcised does not make you Jewish. DH was also very pro.

It was awful. Nothing unexpected happened, like an infection or whatever. But he screamed. I remember it so clearly. DH, who was in the room, feels that the scream was more because of the position ds had to be held in, and the general interference. I can't know. Logic tells me it was rather more likely to be about the operation itself!

He had just started smiling, about 3 days before the operation. He stopped smiling for a day and a half afterwards

It was made slightly worse for me, perhaps, by the fact that instead of a big family bris with lots of support, we were on our own at a GP surgery. But nothing changes the central fact of what you are doing to a child.

I am influenced in my dislike of the procedure by the fact that by about two years later, dh had lost his faith completely and no longer wanted to be involved in Judaism. I felt then, and still feel, that I let my son down, and that for not very coherent reasons I allowed something that goes against what I feel is right for children, i.e. that absolutely nothing medical should happen to them unless it is the best possible choice for their future. I also have met Jewish women who have chosen not to circumcise their sons, since that time. (I haven't sought them out, by the way).

This is an unrelentingly negative story, sorry! I can easily imagine you choosing another route and being happy with it, plenty of people are. In fact all the men in my family are circumcised too (very fashionable in post-war times). I think it is obvious that I would not choose the same route again, nor would I ever recommend what I did to someone else. However, every family is different. HTH and best wishes.

onebatmother · 02/12/2009 10:49

I've slept with circumsised and uncircumsised men, yes.

ARen't we talking about the baby though? And pain, and irretrievable loss of a piece of him?

Because if we're talking about sexual pleasure (a very individual thing) that's something for him to decide, later.

GibberingGinger · 02/12/2009 10:49

My husband is circumcised and has suffered no lasting trauma from it. It was done as a baby (he's canadian) but I'm not sure exactly how old he was - must ask mother in law.
At the moment only have a daughter so it's all theoretical, however if we have a son then it will be something we will seriously consider.

Jujubean77 · 02/12/2009 10:50

Yes I have as you ask, but I don't think you need to have sex with them to see the difference. It's quite obvious. I don't think the issue is that it makes them inadequate in bed, it may do, but that is not primarily why I feel it is wrong.

ABetaDad · 02/12/2009 10:52

There is some loss of sensitivity as the glans becomes hardened from being exposed all the time.

The consultant who circumised DS2 said it is much worse for teenage boys or men to be circumcised than infants. DS2 is happy about it now and suffers no pain and never mentions it. He told everyone at school he was having it done though so no embarrasment either.

warthog · 02/12/2009 10:52

there is no way on earth i'd let my babies be subjected to genital mutilation. because there's no good reason to have it other than you're less likely to catch aids if you're circumcised.

from talking to my previous sexual partners, i think uncircumcised is the way to go wrt to their pleasure. they lose a lot of sensitivity.

your ds can always have it done later. he can never have it undone.

noddyholder · 02/12/2009 10:57

have slept with both and tbh if a man knows what he is doing in the bedroom it is irrelevant although visually I prefer it as nature intended rather than circumcised.

sarah293 · 02/12/2009 10:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

noddyholder · 02/12/2009 10:58

the sensitivity loss is well documented medically so leave it alone!

racmac · 02/12/2009 11:11

I havent read all the thread - I know it gets heated!

I had ds circumcised for medical reasons and it was horrible. He was in lots of pain and it was infected afterwards - lots of antibiotics that made him have an upset tummy - excrutiating pain. He had this op at 3 yrs old - he is now 9 and still remembers it very well - he STILL talks about how painful it was.

I can not understand why anyone would want to do this to their child - in the name of religion.

bamboobutton · 02/12/2009 11:22

there are plenty of websites out there made by men who are undergoing cicumcision reversals.

noharmm website

plenty of men don't want to be circumcised but had no choice as it was done before they could voice their objection.

please wait until your son is old enough to decide himself.