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Original poster

We are considering circumcision........

196 replies

fustilarian · 01/12/2009 23:05

For our 3 month old son who is half jewish, but the wrong half. My partner is circumcised and would like his son to be too, but is not adamant if I don't want to do it.

I see that it is a very heated topic on mumsnet.

I think that the procedure without anaesthetic is clearly barbaric and horrifying. With anaesthetic it carries risks too, but would you anti-circumcision lobby say it is barbaric done in this way? If so, why?

OP posts:
gorionine · 02/12/2009 11:27

We got DS2 circumcised for religious reasons when he was 6. He knew what was going to happen and was ok with it. When the time came for the actual "operation" he was a bit scared and did cry after. He had no medical complications whatsoever but it is probably impossible to know before hand wether they will definitely get an infection or not.

Now two years on, his little brother is due his circumcision and DS2 is very supportive, saying to his little brother "it is no big deal" so I assume he has not been traumatised by it . I suppose the pain and the psychological repercutions depends both on:

  • how well the child is prepared for it
  • the conditions the operation is performed in (for Ds 1 it was in a medical environment, with local anestetic)
StripeyKnickersSpottySocks · 02/12/2009 11:36

A friend's boy just had to have it done for medical reasons. He was in agony afterwards for a week and had to be readmitted to hospital as it wouldn't stop bleeding.

My brother also had it done as a toddler for medical reasons and has always hated the fact its been done. If you google you will find online support groups for men who feel they are disfugered as they have had this done to them. Some even go as far as plastic surgery to create a new foreskin.

Please don't do it.

nickelbabe · 02/12/2009 11:37

Bonsoir :
LOL at "disfigurement" and "damage". Circumcised penises are neither disfigured nor damaged - they work very well and look rather tidier and more appetising than uncircumcised!

They really are not more appetising!
and tehy don't look tidier either! they look weird like something's missing!
(ooh, maybe that's because it is!)
I know a man with a short foreskin: he hasn't been circumcised but it looks like he has, and it's impossible to do the normal thing in regard to "handling" it because there's no foreskin to pull over the end! it gets dry when being messed about with, and any lubrication that comes out to help the procedure just drips away because it's got nothing to go into! that's the hole point of the foreskin, to help spread the lubricant around.

and let's not sour this debate with the hygiene issue: in the days when nobody bloody washed properly, then of course they were more dirty, but boys should be taught how to wash their bits and bobs in the same way they're taught to wipe their arse!
oh, and by the way, you know how many HIV infections have been sanctioned by the "fact" that they're less likely to get the virus if the man is circumcised? a heck of a lot. in a country where men were reluctant to have safe sex anyway because it was less manly, so slept with all sorts of women (inc prostitutes) and then they get told they don't need to wear a condom anyway because they have no foreskin???? talk about brainwashing!

noddyholder · 02/12/2009 11:46

definitely needed for a good hand job

SunChaser · 02/12/2009 13:09

Anna I have experienced both!

My husband is circumcised for religious reasons (his father is Muslim) and I can hardly contain my rage that his parents would have him mutilated for no reason.

He is more bemused by it (he is not religious himself)

And it is not more aesthetically pleasing, you can see the line where the bloody foreskin should be! So every time you look at it you are reminded that part of it's been sliced off! Mm, arousing!

ABetaDad · 02/12/2009 14:00

I know this does cause a lot of strong feelings on MN, which I respect, but I wonder if partly it is because it is largely women who are responding in a largely theoretical way about something they cannot personally experience. I wonder if more men were debating the topic the tone might be different?

Women see it as a disfigurment while men might see it in a different way? How does your DH/DP feel about it? Personally, I think men feel a lot more misgivings about vasectomy than a circumcision yet women at least on MN are quite happy to say their DH/DP should have a vasectomy and even make quite ribald jokes (which are often very funny) but would not joke about circumcision.

Incidentally, I feel very strongly about female circumcision which really is a terrible disfigurement in my view. Male circumcision is the removal of a piece of skin which albeit painful at the time, does not have a dramatic impact on the life of most men who have it done as infants.

Deadworm · 02/12/2009 14:05

I took Bonsoir's use of the wink icon in conjunction with her remarks about circmcised men being good in bed (and 'tidier') to be a ribald joke about the mutilation of men's genitals. How would we feel if a man commented that a woman who had been mutilated in a certain way as a child was more satisfying bcs 'tighter'. It is vile.

I don't doubt for a minute that very many men indeed are happy to be circimcised. But some are not. And the point is to allow them the choice, not to take it away from them by infant circumcision.

(I also dislike some of the insensitivity shown here about some men's reluctance to have vascectomy.)

willowstar · 02/12/2009 14:06

tricky one this, I haven't read all of the posts but a small part of me was relieved when we had a girl and didn't have to face the circumcision debate.

OH is circumcised. I have to be completely honest, i find a circumcised penis far more attractive than an uncircumcised one. I used to be a nurse and came across some absolutely shocking penis hygiene around/under foreskins that was difficult to deal with. My OH is circumsiced because his whole extended family came from Hungary where it was commonplace. He is happy to be circumcised and wouldn't have it any other way so we really would consider it if we had a son.

I know that goes against pretty much everyone else on here but there you go. In reality I don't think I would go through with it though as it is cosmetic surgery really, at least in our circumstances it would be.

sorry, not much help, just wanted to put another perspective over.

ArthurPewty · 02/12/2009 14:15

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ArthurPewty · 02/12/2009 14:18

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ABetaDad · 02/12/2009 14:34

LeonieDelt - I guess you probably have not had many discussions about it but have any of your male relatives expressed any distress or disquiet about it?

TBH, never ever heard any man really express any negative feelings towards it. However, DW did feel very upset and said similar things to many here when DS2 had his operation.

MsDoctor · 02/12/2009 14:36

I'm thinking of cutting off a small piece of my ds' ear...

Deadworm · 02/12/2009 14:38

ABD even if just a very few men are unhappy with it that is a grounds for not doing it. Even piercing a baby's ears is an awful violation of the baby's autonomy-held-in-trust, and it is likely that we all find our sense of ourself much more implicated in changes to our genitals than to our earlobes.

choosyfloosy · 02/12/2009 14:47

ABD the central point for me is that a vasectomy is something an adult chooses to do. Or experiences years of nagging to do .

willowstar, I've experienced one uncircumcised guy with poor penile hygiene, though probably not to the extent you're talking about. It wasn't pleasant! Hardly a reason to chop a baby's foreskin though.

norfolkBRONZEturkey · 02/12/2009 14:51

~The child in this case isn't Jewish though anyway is he as it follows the female line

spicemonster · 02/12/2009 14:52

ABD - I know several men who have never forgiven their parents for mutilating them when they were young for no good reason (I except genuine religious belief from that). Just because you are fine with it, don't assume that all other circumcised men are.

MsDoctor · 02/12/2009 14:53

OUt of all the men I have slept with (yes there are a few) about 30% have been circumcised and I have come to the conclusion that it's not as nice due to the penis being dry. When the foreskin comes back in those first few pushes the man has a little semen caught and gives vital lubrication. There is a good reason all penises have sort sort of foreskin.

expatinscotland · 02/12/2009 14:55

It was hard enough holding my baby as he cried getting his 3-month-jabs. I can't imagine subjecting him to the pain of unecessarily mutilating his penis for cosmetic purposes.

MsDoctor · 02/12/2009 14:57

gorionine I wouldn't rely on your older ds convincing his brother as a sign that all was fine and Dandy with his procedure. Plenty of woman force their dd's to be circumcised knowing that it is painful, however I think the body forgets pain.

I am amazed that anyone does anything covering/mutilating or whatever for 'God', surely if men were not supposed to have a foreskin he could easily made them without them??? As an atheist I find it very very bizarre.

spicemonster · 02/12/2009 14:59

V good post Deadworm

gladders · 02/12/2009 15:13

to the OP - unless you have fully converted to Judaism, your ds would not be accepted as jewish anyway - regardless of whether the has his foreskin or not?

nickelbabe · 02/12/2009 15:18

MsDoctor: this is the exact thing I'm worried about (short foreskin as per previous post, not messed about with).
It's okay at the mo because we use condoms, but what about when we start TTC and don't use tehm anymore? will there be enough lubrication for him to keep going?

spicemonster · 02/12/2009 15:21

Just buy some lube nickelbabe - Vielle is good because it's non scented and non-sticky. Improves sex no end IMO

ABetaDad · 02/12/2009 15:23

Deadworm/spicemonster - fair points.I don't have a really strong feeling about it but I wonder if the men who do feel mutiliated are perhaps comparing themselves with other men who are not circimcised.

For example, if a boy is the only one in his class at shool who is circumcised then he might well feel different. However, if he is the only boy in his class at school who is not circumcised then he will also feel different. Does it not depend partly at least on cultural context?

I know the only men who have ever really discussed the issue with me were American students at University in the UK and who mostly expressed amazement that English men are generally less often circmcised whereas in America it is much more common. Again a kind of cultural context issue that these students were unaware of until they came to live in Europe.

formychildren · 02/12/2009 15:38

I agree with many or all of you here. When he grows up he can decide himself. Surely the pain must be excruciating! especially while changing nappy and weeing etc.. Though I'm not a muslim I've seen(I think) muslim boys when they reach certain age, some would be teenagers undergone circumcision. It seems they celebrate that ritual. I've also heard somewhere that circumcision is good for the male child/boy/man, can't remember in what way though! But certainly the boy should decide himself. Or otherwise ask your DH to look after the baby all the time he is healing etc..