Are we all spoiling our children and letting them be the boss?

[myhandslooksoold]

Hello
I am usually a lurker on mumsnet (sorry!) but for the first time in 4 years I'm driven to start a post!
A couple of things have started to 'niggle' about the way I am bringing up my children (DD4, DS3) To be honest, I think many families have the same issues but are in varying states of awareness about this!

When I look around the DC's bedrooms and around the house I feel a sense of panic about how much stuff they have. Then they eat half their dinner and then say "Is this enough to eat so I can have pudding?" and then they seem to have 'treats' of some form or another constantly- it's drip, drip, drip of presents and new toys all the time from me, Daddy, family and friends.

Then today I went to my friends house and the kids were doled out constant treats of ice lollies, biscuits etc etc. She is my best friend but I am starting to feel like we can't be together with the children because her children are so spoiled- constant daytrips, snacks, lollies and so so many toys- her kids are really horrible and I wonder whether this is the reason.

Then I spoke to my other friend this evening (who by comparison to my BF is really strict on treats) and she said she did not want any presents for her son's birthday because he has too many toys (although I think he doesn't have that much). She made me reflect on the way I treat my children and I admire her because she has the courage of her convictions to say this despite the inevitable complaints from her son.

So all this happens and it has got me thinking....
I think I want to change tack on the way the kids are brought up. I think I am pretty good as a mum- consistent, firm, loving (still prone to tempers, screaming and all the usual stuff however!) but I feel 'victim' to the pressure to get the kids all the 'kit', invite the whole class to a birthday party at the soft play centre (instead of inviting 5 friends over for afternoon tea which I would prefer) etc.

I'm waffling here, I guess what I'm asking for your opinion on is should WE all be concerned about our 'soft' parenting that this generation of children seems to be receiving? Do we all need to be a bit more like my 'stricter' friend?

I'd add playdough and duplo/lego to OMDB's list, and possibly some figures (if not included with cars)

Or (for vouchers) explain your plan to god mother (be prepared to be laughed at, just be good humoured) and ask if she'd rather you spend it on clothes, or keep it til ds 'needs' something new (eg bike)

Interesting thread. I beat myself up all the time about my parenting. I have ishoos that stem from my own upbringing and because in many ways I don't want to follow the same path my parents took with me I find myself being unclear in my parental policies.

I agree with Banoffi that children need a strong framework to live within, and learning to accept that they cannot get their own way all the time will actually make them happier in the long run.

I know people who have very difficult relationships with their dps because internally they lack the self-discipline that I think is needed to be learned from an early age. Very often these people have problems because they need to test the boundaries. I know a couple of women, both of whom had a strikingly similar upbringing, (real daddy's girls, spoilt materially from an early age), both went for lovely easy going partners but ended up having affairs with quite strict, older men. I do think some people crave a father figure - not a daddy, but a strong father who can reign them in a bit.

Just a few meandering thoughts... but I do think it's a fundamental basis of human happiness is to live within a framework of rules. (Not an oppression though). Even if those rules from the outset seem unappealing.

Message withdrawn

banoffi good luck and keep us updated on your experiment! It'll be interesting to see what happens....

P.S. When I said father I didn't actually mean it literally for everyone - I meant it metaphorically - any kind of ruling body/structure/ whatever, whether that be through school, mother, aunt, grandparents - so long as it is consistent!

Thanks to all of you that have posted. This is incredibly reassuring.
Banoffi- thank you so much for your honest post. Re. the presents from others- this is exactly the same as what happens to us. I wish it would stop. My DC do generally look after and appreciate their toys and play with them all (bear in mind that they are older than your DS and also I have harped on about how they should appreciate what they have for the last year and made a point of throwing out anything they break or spoil and they are then generally sorry and repentant). Three is the perfect age to start the process of education and you are definitely not running out of time. I have debated taking away toys and have made a few hhalf-hearted efforts to 'rotate' stuff but nothing long term. Any advice/experience of this anyone?

BonsoirAnna- you mentioned that you are fussy about what you allow your DD to have- how do you do this re. gifts and all that party bag/cheap crap etc as I am concerned about offending family and friends.

Hey....Here's a thing that just occured to me- my 'strict' friend just returned from a trip abroad and bought back little presents for my DC's!!! She is incredibly generous- bringing over cakes etc. I want to return her generosity and now she says she doesn't want gifts for her son. It's very difficult! I want to 'repay' her for her kindness and this is why all this gift-buying for children is getting out of hand- I reckon this is happening to loads of us. Our kids get a gift (do you still get birthday gifts for your children from ex-work colleagues and friends you had when your children were tiny? I do!) and then we feel we have to 'repay' the gift and so the buying of crap continues and we all fill each others homes.

Or, for relations who can't control their urges to spend their money on your DS, give them the details of his child trust fund account and ask them to pay whatever money they where going to spend on toys into there instead. That way they are helping him in the future instead, far more loving and caring.

Gosh when I started typing this last thread there were 11 replies....
Will read quickly to catch up.....

In answer to OP, IMO, yes!

I have only skimmed the thread as I am soooo tired and on my way to bed, but will read properly tomorrow.
In our house, daddy is the worst offender for giving treats, buying presents, bribing etc etc. I feel a bit alone at times and resentful that I am stuck with the tight, evil, party-pooper mummy role.
Anyway, too tired to make sense. Night-night.

Sometimes I say no to a request by DS, even if I could say yes coz I have the time or money. I just want him to get used to not always getting what he asks for. It is hard sometimes but is good practice.

Have just been thinking about this whilst loading the dishwasher, and realise that whilst I can limit stuff reasonably OK, but I do struggle sometimes with saying no vs (as Anna puts it) the 'decisions about your own life' thing.

By and large, I feel that if the dcs want to do something, and it isn't a pain for me (or rude to someone else/breaks any of my other key parenting rule whatsits) , I go with it. I do sometimes wonder if more structure/benign dictatorship would make everyone's lives easier.
Dd, for example, likes getting changed. I allow this, as long as we're not in a rush. She sometimes wears 3 outfits a day. It's such a minor thing, but I do wonder if we fit round our kids, when they should be fitting (more) around us...

I would just go with your instincts.
For example there is no way that I would give a whole class party-whatever the pressure because I hate them. We have had lots of rows about trainers, for example, but in the end they got the message that I had a top price and anything above they had to top up with their own money. I tend to buy books outside birthdays (because I don't think you can have too many books) but not much else. We don't have lots of treats in the house, so that is easily solved. Luckily we don't have family who buy lots of things.
I constantly tell them that they will thank me when they are older-I think they will!
I give them time which is far more important than material possessions.

PS Banoffi - real saucepans + box = much better - and much easier to tidy away at the end of the day

"I just don't think it's us as parents spoiling our children, we all do it collectively as a society. we all expect so much, for A Lot to be normal. My granny had two coats, one for winter, a mac for spring. I, I have, a lot of coats, too many. too ashamed to count." Banoffi, yes yes yes I so agree.

I am going to talk to the kids tomorrow about their toys- I have already been talking about how much they have and how the house is starting to get full up. I am going to explain how some kids have no toys at all and suggest a think about what they really need and what they could give to another child. After the sort out, from then on it's going to be one in-one out policy.

As for the 'who's the boss' problem I am going to be ready to be boss. No more Mrs Walkovermummy. Thanks to those who posted reminding me that it doesn't mean that the boss is the dicatator- the children need to have a part and a say in our life as a family.

The other thing I noted was that a treat doesn't have to be a gift or outing. How about a reward being "to bake a cake with mummy" or "water the garden with the hose" instead of "cbeebies magazine" or "sweeties". Treats do not have to involve spending money.

Funnypeculiar- yes we have a similar problem re. outfits. My DD will wear one outfit for half a day (she wears school uniform to preschool) and then at the end of the day we hang it on a peg in her bedroom (it maybe has one dirty mark- not worth washing). Then the next day she argues with me about putting yesterdays outfit on "I don't fancy those shorts today Mummy" and sometimes I give up and let her choose a clean outfit. Then that evening I have 2 very slightly dirty outfits! So I end up inconveniencing myself with more washing to let her have her own way- yes I am fitting my life around her.

It's all so flipping exhausting isn't it- having those constant battles of power. My mum always says "choose your battles" but with this approach I am developing an 'it's not worth the fight' mentality so end up with more work because it is easier.

Message withdrawn

I agree that in society, children often get away with far too much... I am quite strict with my two children, but I do see this as quite a different issue from material possessions.

I am strict with my children - DD1 is 5 and DD2 is 2, both have to make their own beds in the morning, if they want to have friends to play in their bedroom, they have to tidy it up first (and I will not help - their room, their mess - but if they want friends round, they need to tidy up first). I will not clean DD1s bum, or put her shoes on or anything like that, I'm her mother, not her slave.

That said, my girls do own lots of toys and their playroom is rather full. But, they are also taught to respect their stuff. If they break a toy, it goes into the bin and will not be replaced. I do not buy toys during the year, and neither does family really. In fact, I do not buy lots of toys for birthdays either... but they do have a big party. DD1 wanted a big present for her birthday this year, and I said to her if she had that she wouldn't get her big (whole class type thing) party. She chose the party - her reasoning was 'Birthdays aren't about presents, are they mummy?' (That is an actual quote from my 5 year old). She equates Christmas with presents (then she does get loads!) and birthdays with the celebration (usually a party and weekend break - shared with her sister's birthday). She gets a load of presents at Christmas - but that will pretty much be it for the year.

Earlier this year, she wanted a lap top as the computer in her playroom was a very old hand me down and so very slow - we let her have it, but she had to save the money first by earning it through doing chores and selling off old toys through Ebay etc. She raised the money entirely herself, and got her laptop (netbook).

So I see having lots of possessions as being very different to being spoilt. Come round my house and you will see the playroom stuffed with toys, but you will also see all the games have got their pieces, all the jigsaw pieces intact and all the dressing up clothes hung up and orderly. They have lots, but they know how to respect what they have got as they know if they don't it will go in the bin and it will not be replaced.

"BonsoirAnna- you mentioned that you are fussy about what you allow your DD to have- how do you do this re. gifts and all that party bag/cheap crap etc as I am concerned about offending family and friends."

When DD was very little (1 and 2), if she received really vile plastic presents (Polly Pocket, Pet Shop etc) it went straight to the recycling bin! I was really ruthless. As she has got older and actually plays with the yucky stuff people give her for five minutes, it gradually disappears ie I hide it away and if she doesn't ask for it, I also recycle it.

Bit by bit, family (DP's family, because mine doesn't buy that stuff) have cottoned on to the fact that we don't do trashy plastic and so we get much less of it or I get asked before they buy it.

Party bags aren't a huge deal here in Paris - mostly a few sweets and a balloon.

We do the one toy in another out policy, if it's a big thing.

Ds loves plastic tat if it does cool stuff, but there's a limit! I have to do sneaky trips to charity shop and just hope he doesn't notice something has gone. He often does!

Some family really really don't like it but we have asked for money into an account for when he's older instead of a gift.

If they want to give a gift they can. Hope to talk about all the money he's saved (plus his pocket money pittance!) to buy a bike or whatever..

We do this as Anna does- and less is definitely more IYSWIM.
I frequently put things straight into the closet so that dd doesn't see them, however unfortunately party bags here are full of vile tat which I cannot remove from dd once she has seen it- usually on the way home from the party tbh.
She is also cursed blessed with an eidetic memory so I cannot just put something away as she asks for it.

Ineresting thread.
Banoffi - about the vouchers: Why don't you just keep them until he/you sees something that he really needs. That could be clothes, learning materials, books, whatever. If the voucher-giver asks what you bought, you can explain that he has so many toys at the moment that you wanted to save them and get something special that he'll remember and treasure. Perhaps she'll get the message that you don't want any more crap lovely, but uncherished presents.

To other worried posters: YOU are the parent, you get to call the shots on what your dc has / does not have.
If the amount of stuff your dc have is getting you down, do something about it! It IS shocking how much stuff kids accumulate and mine are no exception. However, living as my family (DH, DD,4 and DS,1) do in a tiny apartment in central Tokyo, we I have no option but to limit the amountof stuff that comes in. Recycable/charity shops here are practically non-existent and as I don't own a car, would find it difficult to get across Tokyo with bags of old toys etc to the one church that holds the odd recycling bazaar, so I try and be as strict as I can on what comes in in the first place. When relatives etc ask what they want for xmas/birthdays, I always ask for money to put in their accounts in the UK - thankfully most people are more than happy to do this as it means avoiding having to send presents abroad. The kids don't miss what they don't know (birthday presents aren't a big thing in Japan and xmas isn't really xmas).

I find they love plastic tat-it seems very unfair to remove it, from an adult point of view, before they have played with it! I would just remove it when it has been forgotten. DCs often don't like the same toys as adults-I found they preferred bright plastic to tasteful, natural wood.

I don't encourage my DD to play with plastic tat (=junk toys) for exactly the same reason that I don't want her watching indiscriminate TV (=junk media) or eating chips and burgers (=junk food).

The world is absolutely chock-a-block full of rubbish created by humans. My responsibility as a parent is to help my child distinguish quality and those things that will do her good among all the rubbish.