At 3.00 this morning I had a revalation: My wishy washy baby led parenting is a big bucket of poo.

[BroccoliSpears]

I co-sleep.
I bf on demand.
I waited to 26 weeks to BLW.

And as a result I have not had more than 90 minutes sleep in a row for quite a while now.

I spent many hours last night feeling feverishly jealous of my friends who all weaned on to mush at 4 months and "taught the baby to go to sleep by himself" and "didn't make a rod for their own back" and put the baby in a cot on its own in its own room and potty trained their 2-year-olds with sticker charts so no longer have 2 children in nappies. It all seemed suddenly clear - I think they are right and I'm a mug. A sleep deprived, well intentioned, damp hen.

Broccoli
Just noticed that you mentioned that your DD was potty trained then went back to nappies. My DD did this when DS was a baby. It is an adjustment for a child, even a very young one, when a younger sibling is born. DD went back to asking for her dummy, not using the toilet, being generally more babyish. It was, sorry for the cliche, a phase and she got past it.

I am very middle of the road with this one, we fed on demand but did not cosleep (as I could not sleep with a baby in the bed. Everyone has to decide what is right for their own family and not rely on childcare gurus or even other parents' advice, however well meaning.

Hope you get a better nights sleep tonight.

"But babies are not mindless creatures to be dictated to. They have their own feelings and needs that parents should respect."

But, as adults, we can only ever really infer those needs... we can judge what we think they are trying to tell us, but often we don't know for sure.

I also think, as parents, we have a duty to ensure that our babies learn to fit into thier environment - their family and ultimately society. So they can learn - gently and gradually - that night is for sleeping and daytime is for waking, for example. That it is perfectly possible to settle down to sleep without a feed. Obviously, they learn such things gently at at different paces for each baby. I don't accept this is cruel or denying their needs or feelings. I think it is part of nurturing them. JMO.

CarGirl, DD was definitely too distracted by elder sibling to feed enough during the day.
She fed way better when DS was napping or at nighttime.
I wonder now how much of that was to do with me being more relaxed. I didn't always find it easy to relax during feeding with a 2 yr old on the loose!

Brocolli - I completely understand where you're coming from.

When DS was 6 months, after he'd woken at least 3 times most nights since he was born (we had about 5 nights straight where he did 2 * 4 hour stints) and often more, I just cracked. We'd been co-sleeping but it wasn't working for us as I was getting back ache, and DS had started getting uncomfortable and needing settling instead of just latching back on - which sort of overcame the positive aspects for me. I was so tired I was questioning everything I had done. Had I made him how he was by letting him sleep on me, fall asleep on the nipple etc?

I tried NCSS stuff but I was so exhausted that I got wound up really quickly. In the end I was so fed up that I left DS to cry - one of those times where I could well have ended up doing something awful if I'd kept trying to get him to go to sleep. Long story short was that for about 2 weeks or so we let him cry. He never cried for more than 45 minutes continuously (20 if we didn't keep checking him). We got him to the point where he was sleeping in 4 hour stretches and this gave me the strength (and sleep!) to keep going, and we're now doing more gentle settling stuff. (DH cuddles him in the dark but doesn't give milk). Also, although I really didn't want to do this, moving DS into his own room has helped no end (although I did worry a lot to start with)

I'd never tell anyone to do this if they were uncomfortable with it, but it certainly worked for us as I know that DS now sleeps better generally and is happier/has more energy in the day. I felt like I was no use as a mum when all I wanted to do all day was sleep! (At 9 months he has 2 feeds during the night - a dream feed at around 10, and then another anytime between around 3.30 and 5 (if he wakes before then we settle without milk)

I still feed DS to sleep most of the time (although if he's had a slightly earlier bath and fills up before he's quite tired, I can put him in his cot and he's stopped crying by the time I've got downstairs and turned the monitor on), and I've stopped questioning my decisions (so much )

Anyway, if all else fails, there's a little bit in the back of NCSS that basically says, if you're too tired to do all the rest, but you don't want to leave your baby to cry, then let your baby cry in your arms. They'll settle eventually and they know you're not abandoning them.

IMO even if you have no intention of changing how you do things, you need somewhere to rant about it.

BS, I should also have said that now DS is in his cot, I don't feed him every time he wakes - if I can pat him or soothe him back to sleep without feeding him then I do. Feeding is a last resort, but he is a very hot baby and if I leave him to cry for any length of time, if he didn't need feeding at the start of it he certainly does by the end!!

I did find that he also started to sleep better when he was taking some solid food during the day - his last meal at night (non-milk) includes warm rice milk with mashed biscuit (not as bad as it sounds, no sugar in these), which is quite filling and soothing, and then he has a last bf and goes to sleep.

It works for us, I don't know whether it would work for you or not but I hope you find a way through and manage to get some sleep.

Anna 888 the riends babies do not want yoour pity they are asleep any way

You are not a mug, you sound like a mum who is trying to do the best by her children..as a previously sleep deprived nut, you are not making a rod for your own back. For example at bed time my 2dc (now 4 and almost 3)were hard work..waking up and co-sleeping with us..however they have grown up knowing that we love them, are there for them and bedtimes are soooooo easy now. Whereas my friend who I was insanely jealous of (who did controlled crying, and repeatedly nagged and judged at me) still has the situation where her dd crys for ~30 mins every night before finally giving in...I could never cope with that every night...

the best way is your way, ask whats right for your family...if co-sleeping means that your all getting some rest..it shouldn't matter what other people think..there is far too much pressure for dc to grow up and meet targets, HV and books should not be allowed to hand out attainment/age related charts. We are all individuals, learning at our own pace, different things make each of us happy..etc..

...sorry didn't mean to go on....

Haven't read whole thread, but it sounds like you are doing really well to me! It's just unfortunate that your particular baby wakes up so frequently at night, but I did find co-sleeping a godsend with dd2 (was too scared to do it with dd1, and turned into sleep-deprived crying jibbering wreck!) I found as dd2 (and subsequent ds) got older, they managed to latch on themselves, which was bliss, and although I woke a little I was still dozing, and the whole thing was very peaceful.

Don't worry about your friends' babies- IME karma makes sure it all pans out! the good sleepers now might be really problem eaters, or challenging toddlers. Nobody really has this baby-lark as sewn up as all that!

BS, I really do sympathise! You sound knackered.
I do think you are right to feed ds through the night, he is still very little and probably does need the milk. I do wonder though if the co-sleeping could be making him wake up more often though? After all, if he is snuggled up to you and can smell the milk, it must be tempting? Ds4 is bf and 6 months old now. He has been on solids for about a week now and if anything it disrupted his sleep a couple of times, he was very whingy, then did a big carroty poo and was fine! On just milk, he was pretty much sleeping through.

Now, he has been a good sleeper since he was a few weeks old so possibly isn't a good example but I decided one week that I would pick a bedtime, put him in his cot at that time and see what happened. And I do think it has helped in that he was in his own bed, therefore couldn't smell me and has ended up sleeping from 9pm to 5am ever since, with maybe the odd broken night. When he does wake up, he comes into bed with us and stays there till we all get up

Potty training I wouldn't bother rushing in any way, shape or form. I found to my cost with ds1 that if you rush it, they end up training at the same age they would have been trained anyway, you are the one running around bribing, reminding, cajoling and doing more laundry! With ds2 and ds3 I left them to decide for themselves and they were both trained within a month.

why is 3am not an appropriate time for milk?
i don't go a whole night without a drink.
why should i expect my child to?
please don't forget that breastmilk, as well as being a sourse of nutrition, is also a way to quench thirst. it's a drink!

Just have to say I love your thread title. It has been making me chuckle all day.
We too are doing wishy-washy baby led parenting (though only with 1 child, thank goodness) and for about 22-23 hours out of 24 I am entirely happy with our decisions. But there is sometimes a point in the day or night when I need to put DS down for a nap, or enjoy a bit of baby-free time in the evening and he won't be having it and I wish that we had gone down the GF/BW route. (such as now, I have a sleeping 11-month-old on my lap who will wake up if I delatch him, and as for putting him in his cot...)
But I think I would find that style of things equally difficult, just in a different way. And it does seem to be gradually getting better over time.
Anyway, I think the point of all this rambling is to say that you are not alone in sometimes regretting/resenting your parenting choices but if that mostly happens at 3am (never a good time to make decisions) then you're probably doing alright.

"at bed time my 2dc (now 4 and almost 3)were hard work..waking up and co-sleeping with us..however they have grown up knowing that we love them, are there for them"

Of course, since children who sleep in their own cots/beds grow up thinking their parents don't love them or will be there for them

3 am is not an appropriate time for milk once a baby is past a certain age, determined by their parents with regards to the baby's needs and habits, because:

a- adults need sleep too
b- a healthy baby can take in all their food and drink needs at other times if they get used to doing so

It's a case of encouraging habits that you want the baby to have, not neglecting them or being cruel!

Of course, since children who sleep in their own cots/beds grow up thinking their parents don't love them or will be there for them, that's not what I was referring too, that's a great generalisation. My dc now go to sleep in their own bed, I was only referring to my friend who has judged my namby wishy way of parenting whose dc cries every night (for nearly 2.5 yrs) how upsetting must that be for the young child who is 3?

Have read this with interest as although my DD1 (12 mths) has been what seems like an easy baby, I like to think it's more down to her than anything I've done. DD2 is due any day now, and I am wondering what kind of child I will get rather than what approach I will take.

I think "middle ground parenting" needs to describe the current parent generation to try and help us feel better about what we choose to do. We get "techniques" slammed in our faces from the TV/books/net by "expert" nannies (not mummies) that range from letting your baby dictate your life through to extreme regimented dictatorship (I have no opinion on what is best on a case by case basis by the way). I also think so many of us have our eyebrow raising mothers and grandmothers letting us know in their own little ways that what we are doing is not what they did - and look how wonderfully we all turned out to be! It seems we have to battle with not just the reality of raising children, but also making the right choices out of so many options, and then handling the public perception of how we are coping. We should all give ourselves a break really.

Anyway - from reading between the lines at what your are saying BroccoliSpears, if I were in your shoes, I would try the more food and less sleep in the daytime as the first steps in taking a bit more control, as it sounds like the rest of the stuff (co-sleeping, waiting til 26 weeks to BLW, 2 kids in nappies etc) is not the issue. You need sleep. It's a fact - and you'll be a better Mummy - whatever your parenting choices, if you are mentally and physically refreshed. My advice is to focus on improving that a little bit at a time. Good luck.

Broccoli; have read some of the thread and I agree with you! I have six month old who is ruling the roost. With my DD I was much stricter as i had to go back to work when she was 5 months (I haven't had to with this one). She's now four and never has a toilet accident, wets the bed or wakes up in the night. She also eats her food without any trouble is very balanced. I fear I'm not going to have the success with number two as I'm too laid back with him (for an easy life). If you find the happy medium then please let me know.

i have huge amounts of sympathy for oyu broccoli. my dd1 was (IS!) an atrocious sleeper and dd2 is only one or two notches above atrocious. tbh i have now decided it is 100% the luck of the draw... you could have parented a la claire verity and still have the same issues, you will never know.

your friends may be all smug now, but give them another few months/years and compare again. parenting is a long term business, i know it doesnt help when youa re tired and sleep deprived and a bit depressed.

you are doing what is best for your children and for yourself. things will change, they will get better, even if by tiny imperceptible incremental degrees.

good luck!

also broccoli- try as hard as you can to avoid falling into the trap of thinking about "successes" and "failures". it is NOT what parenting is about. you get through each day, one step at a time, this is not a competition.

Gosh, I am just in awe of you. I also have 2 DDs, 2.6 and 6 months, am having broken sleep and am a jibbering wreck. (I loved someone's quote about having the personality sucked out of them, I WANT to be me again but it's just so hard.) And I have nursery for DD1 three mornings a week and DH (although he works until 9pm most nights). I will think of you every time I feel sorry for myself.

FWIW, DD2 now only gets milk if she wakes up under 4 hours after previous feed (and yes it is very tempting if she wakes up 3hrs 50mins later but I need to set boundaries for my own sanity). She wakes up all the time, especially now with changing temperature and all the germs DD1 brings home from nursery.

I think you're doing incredibly well. DD2 gets left to cry more than DD1 did but they are different babies with different habits and DD1 wouldn't have settled herself in 5 minutes whereas DD2 (occasionally) can. Often it's not deliberate on my part, I'm just so shattered I can't get up.

You sound like a fantastic mum. You cracking up won't help anyone so do what you need to for YOURSELF for now.

Just wanted to say that whatever your approach to parenting being alone with 2 little ones for a period of months is really tough and you need all the help/ support you can get. I'm on my own with our lo all week and when daddy gets back on Friday I just collapse in a heap (and this is despite the fact that she's a good sleeper) - so you are doing an amazing job to be getting through each day. I really hope that things get easier for you.

Thank you for the encouragement

I hadn't clicked that ds is distracted in the day and so not feeding as much. Will work on that. Good point

Have bought dd one of those alarm clocks that lets her know when it's time to get up - it might help her learn that 5am is not breakfast time. It would be nice if the night feeds didn't bleed into the 2-year-old getting up at painful-o-clock.

Fed a lot yesterday and ds had potato for supper, but still up every couple of hours for a 25 minute feed. It's probably a bit of a growth spurt, and I think he's teething a bit. It will pass.

I should have been in bed an hour ago! Off now.

HI, it is very hard when husbands/partners are away, I really understand as mine is away for a few weeks and i feel haggard. you have to do whatever you can to get through. I dont think you should worry, my son didnt potty train until 3 as he was not ready and nor was i with a new born. My 9 month old will not go to sleep unless i cuddle her, but then i put her in her cot asleep and she ends up with me in bed by midnight, so i have it all wrong too, but it works for me at the moment and like you i am on my own with 2 and so i do it.

you are not a mug at all, but you can make changes if you want, my DD didnt want purees, she didnt mind baby rice but almost went straight to finger food and slept better.
Its very hard at times being a mum especially these early times, don't put pressure on yourself.

BTW, Broccoli, forgot to say in my last post that you are actually doing a fab job, just that your ds is making it very hard for you!

Havent read all the posts but I go with the middle ground too - whatever works for you, don't feel guilty if you have to tighten up on some things.

I never really co-slept but ds1 snuggles in once or twice a week, ds2 hates being in our bed with a passion even though we'd be happy to have him. I always bf on demand and don't personally believe in controlled crying but mine slept in cots in their own room, mostly, from about 4/5 months. Weaned week or 2 before 6m and really did a mixture of BLW, mashed and even the odd bit of puree shock horror, no jars though, all organic, but LOADS of those Ella's Kitchen sachets (they had 2 each for tea today as there was nothing in!). Potty trained ds1 at 21/2 when he was clearly ready. This is the fit that works for us. My boys have always slept like angels and, no matter what terribles days I sometimes have, I can get by because I always have the evening to recover and unbroken sleep (unless they're ill).

Not that I have all the answers (if only) but I think you have to look after yourself as well as them - you need to get some more sleep. Find the happy medium for you.