At 3.00 this morning I had a revalation: My wishy washy baby led parenting is a big bucket of poo.

[BroccoliSpears]

I co-sleep.
I bf on demand.
I waited to 26 weeks to BLW.

And as a result I have not had more than 90 minutes sleep in a row for quite a while now.

I spent many hours last night feeling feverishly jealous of my friends who all weaned on to mush at 4 months and "taught the baby to go to sleep by himself" and "didn't make a rod for their own back" and put the baby in a cot on its own in its own room and potty trained their 2-year-olds with sticker charts so no longer have 2 children in nappies. It all seemed suddenly clear - I think they are right and I'm a mug. A sleep deprived, well intentioned, damp hen.

It's a funny thing about potty training. We had three months of her being potty trained and then she started having accidents all over the place and then announced she wanted to wear nappies again. We're having a pretty unsettling time at the moment and I think she wants to be babied for reassurance so I've just gone with it. I have friends who are unable to go anywhere without a potty in a carrier bag and have been that way for nearly 5 months now. Other friends who's dc just 'got it' and never looked back. Spent yesterday with friends whose every third sentence was "do you need to sit on your potty now?" and that was tiresome, so on balance, yes, nappies aren't so bad really. I'm doing them for one so it's no much extra faff doing them for two!

LOL at asking a child whether he/she needs to use the potty every few minutes.

That doesn't count as being trained IMO.

LOL at asking a child whether he/she needs to use the potty every few minutes.

That doesn't count as being trained IMO.

Anna - why is it sad for their children - sleeping a cot, weaning slightly early or potty trained early

I find that incredibly judgemental.

My DS always slept in the cot next to me, and around 7 months in their own room or in my bed if they are sad.

They were weaned at about 5 months

DS1 was enthusiatically using a potty by 2.

and they are lovely happy healthy children.

Just because people dont do what you do doesnt make it wrong.

Just seen this thread - feel so much better - I'm not alone! Broccoli, it's just dawned on me that my 5 mth DD2(BF, unweaned, part co-sleeper) and 2 yr DD1 need more of a routine. And so do DP and me if we're ever going to get more than an hours sleep. I shall read back through thread for handy hints. Change starts today.....well, tomorrow at any rate

well I def did a middle ground! exclusive bf on demand, weaned at 6 months, potty trained when they seemed ready (all quite quick) but I "taught" my youngest at a few days old that it was okay for her to lie in cot by herself when she was tired - it didn't involve crying it was very pick up put down with perhaps 10 seconds whinging max in between. Only took a day for her to happily go to sleep by herself.

Co-sleeping is fab if you can actually sleep like a log though it all.

I have been attacked on MN in the past for doing that to my newborn baby because it was cruel and I weren't meeting her needs. I'm glad I did that rather than having to resort to controlled crying with a much older baby/toddler or the 4 years of disturbed sleep I had with one of my older dc.

Broccoli can you make your bed wider by having a drop side cot right next to it etc?

I have a co-sleeping, bf, totally refuses to sleep unless held, waking every 90 mins 24 week old dd2 so I do know how you are feeling. DD1 is 20 months. It's hard work and I think this period, after 5 months of very little sleep, is particularly difficult as the sleep deprivation is cumulative and you start to think you will never get a decent sleep again.

Personally I have totally done the wishy-washy thing too and I do sometimes wonder if I've created my own problems, esp when other mums look incredulously at my tales of having babies who WILL NOT SLEEP however tired they are (yes, even in the car, yes, even in the buggy, gah, yes, I have tried just putting her down..... gah) and you can see they have no idea. Sleep deprivation is definitely relative. DP's colleague recently complained that their 6 month old baby was waking once inthe night again after sleeping through since 6 weeks and they were "exhausted" with the effort. Cue much eye-rolling from me and DP and me muttering through clenched teeth something about "don't know how lucky they are"....

... but I think we have to do what we do to survive. Just surviving is what it's all about at this stage for me. I hope things start to improve soon for you (and for us!) but I think you are doing a fantastic job under difficult circumstances and esp since you are dealing with them by yourself just now.

It's not really the co-sleeping that is stopping me sleeping. There's plenty of room for both of us and I'm happy with a baby in bed. I will try him in his cot to see if it helps, but getting him out of my bed isn't a desparate prority I don't think. It's more that he feeds all night, which isn't something Mumsnet can solve! I'm being more objective now - it helped to blurt it out and have lots of sympathy back. I am going to try a couple of changes and see how we go.

Unfortunately DH doesn't come home for weekends. We should all be together again by December, fingers crossed.

By the way, did I spell revalation wrong in the title? Revalation. Revelation. Yes I did.

Thank you Bella - lovely post

Co-sleeping is what gave me a full night's sleep though - or as near as dammit - because of not having actually to get out of bed. I was in heaven (didn't start till dd1 5 months old though). I'm not sure with a baby under one that you'd actually get more sleep by not co-sleeping, unless you were doing some kind of sleep training (which is more than just not co-sleeping) - unless you are simply not able to sleep comfortably with the baby there, which must be your situation I suppose? That's definitely going to limit its value to the family as a whole, even if it is quite good for the baby. Have you tried a bedside cot (sorry if you have and I missed it in my skim reading)?

BS in a similar ship as you at the moment with dh away and a 4 wk old and 3.5 yo. tho she is potty trained, she's been in a leg cast for 4 wks so like a big baby. also reuniting wih dh in dec.

I breast fed all 3 of mine until they were over one,each one slept in our bed until they were one,then they all went into a cot with little or no fuss,if you want to maybe you could bottle feed at night so your partner can bottle feed,try not to take on board what other people are saying,we as woman sometimes like to gloat and we don't realise how we can sometimes make others feel,take your time and you'll soon find your groove.Good luck

Broccoli - my earlier annoyance wasn't at you - I think you must do what feels right for you, don't listen to anything other than your intuition.

If what you are doing is making you child happy then you are doing right. DS2 hates co-sleeping always has, so we didnt with him. Ds1 we do sometimes but he slept through much better when he wasn't in the same room as us as we were all waking each other up. And in the morning he was all grumpy and so was I.

But if it is affecting you in the day to the point where you are not happy/grumpy then I would reconsider.

Mind your friends are probably making it sound easier than they are finding it really!

Feeding all night, not surprised your shattered!!!!

Hmmmmm, book some help during the day so you can get some catch sleep whilst you try and sort it out. I guess I'd try and bf more in the day and cut out the amount of feeds he is having during the night - it would take time to shift his eating times.

I think denying him at at night (obviousl not the whole night but cutting down to perhaps 2 feeds at first) will be knackering at first and take commitment but once you achieve that he will be hungrier during the day?

I think it would be a shame to do rush BL weaning and stop co-sleeping when he "just" (a roll around on the floor laughing because "just" isn't the right word to use - implies it may be easy) needs to learn to eat during the day rather than at night!

Well, you know all those best-selling books about sleep training, how to do controlled crying, etc.? Nobody buys them except repentent ex-baby-led parent types -- isn't it amazing that baby-led parenting is so prevalent??

ER, NOT...

Thank you purplemonkey. I feel all warm inside

Now.... can someone help me cope with a 12 week old co-sleeping kitten?

I think it is fair to you all as a family to prioritise your own sleep. I would have fallen apart if I had only slept in ninety minute chunks for months. Whatever you feel comfortable with to increase your own sleep, maybe spacing the night feeds out more, however you do it, I think you should go ahead. It doesn't have to be controlled crying!!

For me (with a 23 month age gap) I did teach them to go to sleep by themselves, did wean to mush at 16 weeks (recommended at the time)and didn't try potty training until 2.9 at which point it didn't take long. Everyone has their own way - but don't assume that you have to be sleep deprived for the sake of your babies, I just don't see how that helps.

You too Foxy? Sucks eh?

There's a middle ground, your children can be routine without being regimented, and I must say that a lot of it depends on the child you get.

Yes I offered the breast at least 5 times during daylight hours, reasoning that they needed a certain amount and if they didn't get it during the day they'd wake me up for it

Broccoli - I empathise with your pain, DD2 was never a good sleeper and even at 12 months was still waking 5-6 times a night for a feed. I broke then I thought enough is enough we have done the cosleeping, BFing, BLWing and I knew that she wasn't waking with hunger but I needed sleep. What we did was put her in her own cot (still in our room) then first time she woke, DP got up to her, rocked her, patted her, never left her but no boob was offered, first night we had 50 mins of crying, second night 10 mins after that nothing. Once boob wasn't offered she didn't get up. I don't feel that it was cruel at all. She moved out of our room at 14 months. She potty trained at 2.8 months as I was pregnant and couldn't be bothered before that, it took her a week probably as I left it so late.

I'm a complete glutton for punishment as I now have cosleeping/BFing 3 month old DD3. Like everything else with parenting do what suits YOU and YOUR FAMILY and sod everyone else.

There is a middle ground between Gina Ford and Dr Sears' attachment parenting. I would really recommend you get the book "No Cry Sleep solution" by Elizabeth pantley.

It has lots of great suggestions on how to get your baby to sleep a lot longer than a 90 minute stretch without restorting to controlled crying. Her methods are not a quick fix and success would probably come in about 3 months rather than 3 days.

yeah sucks. the only way i cope is going to bed at 7pm with dd1 and dd2, cosleeping. I saw and posted on your thread in 'living overseas' maybe under my old name.

Am I the only one here who cringes at the sound of "baby-led parenting"?

Isn't parenting supposed to be parent-led? Isn't that the whole point of "parenting"???

I weaned on to mush at 4 months (as per advice at the time), then cut out night feeds soon thereafter and "taught" DD to sleep through the night in three days. She has been sleeping through ever since. Potty trained at 2.6 in three days and was dry at night a week later, all thanks to a bag of M&Ms (she had one M&M every time she went on the toilet).

You lot would probably say I am a terrible parent, and that she must somehow be traumatised because I didn't give her the reins and let her. Yet, she is a happy, bubbly, lovely child and I am a well-rested happy mummy, so there