Does anyone do Unconditional Parenting with a 2 year old??

[nappyaddict]

There seems to be a lot of explaining things for it to work and I just don't think a 2 year old has the understanding for it to work. Would love to be proved wrong though

Just coming back to this to ask UPers what they would do if their 2 year old was in a queue to go on a carousel. In that time mummy wasn't quick enough to get her money out and 2 year old thinks they aren't going on and in frustration/anger/annoyance lashes out at the nearest person which happens to be another little girl. Do you still let them go on the carousel?

I would. I think saying what has been done is wrong and why is enough for a 2 yr old.

Well I did still let him go on it after telling him off and he said sorry to the little girl. I heard another parent (nothing to do with the little girl) say to someone no wonder that child's out of control if she gives him a reward after hurting somebody and then I doubted whether I'd done the right thing.

He's still pinching occasionally at toddler's Not as much though so perhaps it is sinking in. Some people have said I should tell him I will take him home or that he won't be allowed any biscuits if he pinches. I'm not sure about that what do you think? I got the UP book out of the library and it seemed to say you shouldn't reward or punish behaviour as such.

Yes, but it isn't a reward if you had already promised a ride on the carousel. It's a punishment to withdraw the agreed ride.

It's great that he apologised. I don't think mine would have done age 2.

As for toddler group... I think it is ridiculous to not allow biscuits because of pinching. As for going home, 2 is all about learning to socialise much and your child is only going to get the hang of it with practise! But other parents aren't always that understanding so it's hard.

I haven't been in your situation and I don't know what I would do.

I need juuule, filly, notanexcitingname, ruddy and pitchounette back!!

I'm here if that's any good

In your situation, I would restrain the child after the first hit, say whatever shocked "we don't HIT people!!!" comes to mind, make sure the little girl is ok, apologise profusely to all around and then... get on the carousel. Oh, and all the while, reassuring them that the carousel is going to stop soon and then it's your turn

I would also consider

practising queuing - being in lots of informal queues, and taking a proactive role, talking about "three more people then it's our turn" talking about how when the last ride finishes then it's our turn, all sorts of things which are useful for learning how queues work. This is presumably a British child. He therefore has to learn how to queue.

Spending a lot of time on carousels on quiet days when there is no queue, so that they get completely used to the whole script of ride going, we wait, ride stops, we climb on, we give our £1 to the nice lady, carousel goes round, it finishes, we climb off... we climb on etc etc. My experience of similar scenarios is that it takes a finite time before the child completely learns the ropes and learns how to apply the principle to similar situations, that it means the desperation to get onto the carousel has just dissipated and you can go on occasionally if at all, and that the nice lady starts giving you regular free rides

agree with onwards, though lol at "practising queuing" . Very British.

but also-na you say that he is getting better? Well thats really good news! Suggests it IS working! Ignore the naysayers in the queue!

He almost certainly knows not to hit, it is just sometimes too much for his very basic level of self control. Quite possibly he just feels stuff especially strongly and so can control himself less, perhaps he feels more uncertain of his ability to influence things in other ways (verbally etc-how good is his speech?).

As long as a child understands language to at least some degree, I believe they respond and benefit from being treated with respect, involved in decisions.

the carousel thing just sounds like one of those things, tbh, one of those a daft overreaction from an onlooker that are part of parenting. I get shocked when I hear people saying, in cold blood, things like "If you don't stop screaming I'll take away your biscuits" (where is the logic in that?). I just don't say anything, I don't think that ever really helps. I know it can be horrible and undermining to have your parenting questioned like this but if you can, put it out of your mind.

I agree with onwardandupward . I would have very actively shown my disappointment over hitting (fortunately mine only hits me ), buit not withdrawn the ride. That would be punishment. The learning point is in your reaction. Saying sorry is a also a social nicety that needs to be learned, and it's great that he did it . And tough to those who think punishment is the only way.
Oh, and to remember much distraction needed for next time. ooh, there's a bird. Can you stand on one leg? How many hops can you do, etcetcetcetc

Re toddlers, well, no biscuits would also be a punishment, unless you think it's the biscuits causing the pinching (unlikely, I admit!). I'd take him outside (or to a quite corner) each time he pinches, and say that pinching is not nice, you must be gentle, then go back in. I find the break is good to allow dissociating from the incident that caused the pinching, and also for mine it does have to be "somewhere else" in order to eliminate distractions so he can listen. If you try to explain over the incident, as it were, you don't get any response.

I also find reminding mine that he's usually such a good boy (which is actually pretty contrary to AK, but still, works for us) bolsters his confidence and ego, so that he refrains in future. Also looking to see if there's an obvious underlying cause-hunger, tiredness and avoiding those. I would take mine home if he continued to hurt others though; not as a punishment, but because it's not fair to others. I'd phrase it accordingly. Again, maybe not strict AK, but my interpretation.

Hope that's of use!

just skimmed the posts quickly so thankyou to those who replied and sorry if i miss anything out.

we weren't actually queing for the carousel - it was about to start and the lady taking the money said oooh quick it's about to start so i was rushing to find the money and he thought it was going to go without him. he's usually fine in queues (we go to tumble tots where queing and turn taking is a big focus)

TBH I'm not sure if he's getting better at not hurting others or I'm getting better at anticipating when it's about to happen.

The other problem I'm having is that if a child near him starts crying I immediately tell him off even if I don't know what if anything has happened and I'm not sure if I should be doing that. So essentially I end up saying no we don't do that, it's not very nice, do you think you should go and say sorry? without actually knowing what i'm telling him off for.

Finally he has started to hurt me aswell now. My mum said when he does it I should sort of push him away (not literally) and say no Mummy doesn't want to be around little boys that hurt her. She wants to be around nice good boys. And if he asks to be picked up or cuddled a couple of minutes after he's hurt me I should say no. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, what do you think?

I realised that most of the time he would do it if someone touched his camel, bottle or a sticker he was wearing. So now I keep his bottle and camel hidden under the pushchair and only give them him if he really becomes distressed about not being able to have them and make sure he takes off any stickers before toddlers. Also thomas the tank engine, pushchairs and the little tikes coupe car are his favourite things at toddlers and I tend to try and steer him away from those cos I've noticed if he sees another child playing with them that's also when he lashes out. Again not sure if this is the right thing to do. It seems a bit unfair me trying to keep him away from his favourite things but not sure how else to minimise it.

He does it to me when I tell him can't do something so can't really minmise that. Usually I can see it in his face and will grab his hands to stop him.

"Finally he has started to hurt me aswell now. My mum said when he does it I should sort of push him away (not literally) and say no Mummy doesn't want to be around little boys that hurt her. She wants to be around nice good boys. And if he asks to be picked up or cuddled a couple of minutes after he's hurt me I should say no. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, what do you think?"

Bad idea. He needs to be reassured that you still love him.

I usually tell them 'hitting hurts' and tell them if they feel angry to punch a cushion or use words.

I am always available for conciliatory cuddles, in fact any kind of cuddle although with DS who is a bit older when I have been really angry a couple of times I have asked him to wait a little (5 mins) for his cuddle so I could calm down and really enjoy it. He is a bit of sulker though so usually I have calmed down first.

quick post:

you do sound as though you are having a rough time of it. A lot of this is just what many 2 yo boys DO, and it is tiring and wearing and you just have to stick to your guns and keep treating them with as much respect as you can muster.

Saying "mummy only likes nice good boys is not respectful, imo, it is making your approval/love conditional. Would be better to say something honest like, "OW! That HURT!" (not in a scary way, but if he has hurt you-let him know! And if you feel you need to move away because you are afraid he will hurt you again then say so, but don't make him feel like a bad person.

I feel it is ok to take practical action to defend yourself, but be honest about what you are doing and why. His feelings are legitimate, but more than that, you cannot erradicate his feelings using any sort of behaviour modification. You can gradually change how he expresses those feelings-and imo the absolute best way to do that (especially for a boy) is to show him that his feelings are legitimate and will be listened to (though some expressions of behaviour aren't). It is exceptionally tricky to do this with a 2 yo though, I think its really about acknowleging and asking him to change the behaviour, not the feelings.

Do you have "How to talk?" btw? Can't remember. It is great, I think it is practical UP. Though some people (the UP hardcore ) don't like it. I think it WORKS-it keeps the lines of communication open and makes kids feel generally respected.

I also think as a rule if a child is displaying behaviour that they know is wrong, this is very often a self esteem issue and one easy way to improve the behaviour a lot is to put them in situations that boost the self esteem and take them out of situations where they are repeatedly failing. And especially situations where they have a bad reputation. In your son's case-do you need to go to that toddler group? Could you take a break? (I do understand that YOU might need somewhere to let off steam for a bit, I think that is also very important)
. But could you take a few weeks out and put him a lot more into situations that you expect him to behave well in, and then go back to toddlers? Analagous to going into a starvation zone-feed them up first!

"I also think as a rule if a child is displaying behaviour that they know is wrong, this is very often a self esteem issue and one easy way to improve the behaviour a lot is to put them in situations that boost the self esteem and take them out of situations where they are repeatedly failing. And especially situations where they have a bad reputation. In your son's case-do you need to go to that toddler group? Could you take a break? (I do understand that YOU might need somewhere to let off steam for a bit, I think that is also very important)
. But could you take a few weeks out and put him a lot more into situations that you expect him to behave well in, and then go back to toddlers? Analagous to going into a starvation zone-feed them up first!"

Filly - I really needed that paragraph this morning, for a reason entirely unrelated to 2 years olds and carousels. Thank you.

Message withdrawn

Fillyjonk has explained much better than I could, and I entirely agree.

Also, don't do yourself done for recognising tricky situations and diffusing them. that's all part of UP imo. You're steering him through the tricky time of limited communication and understanding without him contravening (too many ) social rules.

AK suggests we always should assume the best possible motive for any behaviour, so definitely don't assume that he's caused the crying of the child next to him.

As far as hitting you goes; always allow the remorseful cuddle, it shows your love is unconditional, and also that you accept the apology (which is how I interpret it). I find that stroking his hands, while saying gentle hands, no hitting, seems to help him wind down from the situation. With mine I can watch him get wound up like a spring until it comes out, either as hitting or throwing (well, I try to do something about it, but don't always succeed!). I also add an explanation that I understand he is frustrated/excited/etc, but that doesn't mean we can throw/hit. I've only started doing that in the last couple of months though-I think my ds is a few months older than yours.

To repeat; I think you're doing well, does sound like you've got a tough time, with too much conflicting (and unwanted advice). I second "How to talk"!

1. So if the child next to him is crying but not old enough to say what happened what should I do? Move DS away, say did you hurt that girl what?

2. And if he is naughty and I tell him off and he cries and then asks for a cuddle should I give him one or not? So many people keep telling me I am "rewarding" his bad behaviour and it's getting me down.

3. Also I'm not sure if I should be holding his hands and restraining him when I can see he is about to hurt me.

God I'm so crap at this.

4. With UP is it ok to send them to another room for time out so they can calm down and think about what they've done? Or would that be seen as a punishment?

1. If someone nearby is crying, you wait for more information before assuming your child is the cause. Really, with a 2 year old, I'd say you need to be running a lot of interference - being really present with your child, interacting with them in public situations, helping them navigate. So gradually learning to recognise what this week's potentially difficult situations are, and being super alert when you are in them

2. I don't think you need to tell him off. You just calmly "we don't hit people. She's very upset and crying now, poor thing, because hitting hurts". Best if you can anticipate and get between him and the child about to be hit - prevention not cure. But a telling off doesn't seem very UP to me, though I may be misunderstanding. Whenever a child asks for a cuddle we give them one, I think (well, I can think of exceptions, but in an ideal world when we are being perfect mummy it's hugs on demand)!

"So many people keep telling me I am "rewarding" his bad behaviour and it's getting me down." You say "We aren't engaging with that whole pavlovian rewards and punsihments thing, we're trying to guide and help him to become a civilised human being rather than frightening him into it".

3. "Also I'm not sure if I should be holding his hands and restraining him when I can see he is about to hurt me." Yes, I think so. Or moving away so he can't. Or helping him find something better to do with his hands.

4. I think time out is a punishment unless one chooses oneself to take a few moments (i.e. if he withdraws). Otherwise, I think timeout is completely incompatible with non rewards and punishment parenting, personally. But I really hate the idea of timeout for small children. Well, for any one, actually. I think it's a horrible thing to do to another person

the absolute key for me is respect. More even than love, I love my kids more than they will ever know, all parents do really-that is not very hard. It is respect that matters, I think. Respect for them as individuals who need space and acceptance to make sometimes frankly daft and irritating decisions. Respect for their emotions.

So in answer to your questions, I'd say, can you time out or tell him off on suspicion of having hit another child, with respect? Could anyone do that to you with respect?

Another issue with the suspected hitting-I think there is a real danger of communicating to him that you expect him to hit-that in a situation where someone is crying, you assume that it will be his fault.

AP/UP parenting is not mainstream, btw, and every single time your child lashes out (as they ALL do from time to time), every time your kid plays up in the bus queue, everyone will assume it is the parenting that is at fault. I ignore this, I deal with this because I believe parenting this way to be the best thing for my kids, and for them I can take the odd crappy comment. Oh and the comments dry up around 3/4 anyway because by then, they have generally grown out of hitting.

whereas you CAN hold their hand respectfully. And YOU are important too. You are not there to be any sort of punchbag, what does that teach them about relationships? About parenting?

I think, often, people want to see children being reprimanded. This is about them and their need for "justice". God I have seen mothers scrapping over which toddler took whose toy in a way befitting jerry springer

onward - sorry by telling off i really mean saying no we don't hit cos it hurts etc.

Also most of the toddlers are younger than him by about 6 months so I'm not really going to get any information out of DS or the other child. Unless another parent saw anything happen and generally it happens so quickly no one will notice. I do watch him like a hawk and tend to stay very close by cos I know what he's like but I'm only human and it only takes looking away at just the wrong moment. So if no adult knows why the child is crying and neither child is able to tell me but DS is standing right next to said child I shouldn't say anything to him about hitting/pinching? Cos I don't know for definite if he's done anything? I hate to be negative but I would guess that he probably has done something and I worry that this is just going to teach him if I do it when no ones looking I won't get into trouble.

Ah! When you said "telling off" I had a real dressing down in mind, weirdly

Might be worth rethinking it as "explaining why X is not ok" rather than "telling off". I can't quite articulate why, but I think there's a distinction in what parent is trying to achieve.

For me, telling someone off is about trying to make them feel what I consider to be the suitable emotion given their actions (shame, mortification)

whereas explaining simply that "we don't hit people because it hurts, so I have to stand between you and the little girl to keep her safe" isn't about your child's emotions it's just about modelling socially acceptable behaviour and doing the whole Elf'n'Safety thing while the social norms are being learned.

So I wouldn't ask a child to say sorry either. I'd say sorry if I did something which hurt or upset a child, and I'd say "oh I'm so sorry, that must have hurt" to the little girl, and I'd wait for the child to pick up on what "sorry" is. Because a heartfelt apology is a completely different animal, socially, from one which adults try to get you to produce on their timetable and in their words. One occasionally comes across children who are a bit thwack "sorry" thwack "sorry", where the apology is actually just "this is the magic code word I have to use at this point because I've been told to 300 times before"

None of that was aimed at you, btw, just aimless meanderings.

Are you good at sitting on the floor/kneeling/squatting? Very good positions to take up when with a 2 year old in public places - it's all down at their level then - much easier to see things peripherally, much easier for them to feel you are engaging with them rather than the adult world 3 feet higher.

There are no chairs at toddlers so yes we all sit on the floor. I ask him to say sorry once but that's it. A lot of the time he will do it automatically. I don't force the issue because I don't think that's going to achieve anything.

BTW did you used to be onwardandoutward or is that a different poster altogether?

Yes it's me.

I'm usually onwardandupward. Sometimes I'm onwardandoutward, depending on whether my bump is on a growth spurt.
And this was my Christmassy name, and I haven't got around to changing it back. I wonder if that is bad luck, like not getting the Christmas tree down before 12th night... comes over all superstitious