You can always tell some women are childless by the fact that they....

[NinaInCognito]

...get in the way of you when you are in the supermarket dragging around a pram, trolley and fiddly child and then they sneer down at you with their basket full of organic lettuce, baguettes and mini-tampons while your trolley is loaded with nappies, a giant pot of Sudocrem and enough chocolate bars to re-sink the Titanic.

You then have to manoever around them while they continue said sneering.

God you can tell what sort of evening I have had, can't you? And I am embarrassed to admit that I used to be one of those women. I apologise to all you mums out there unreservedly.

Now for chocolate bars and MN......

Just read the whole thread. Wow! What a horrible place mumsnet can be sometimes. And no I don't like hun sites either.

The fact the OP left a long time ago says it all really.....

well, there were some catty posts, I'll give you that.

i never read whole long threads do people have no homes to go to

Mondaynightfabio

"are you referring to the thread where someone asked me if i was pregnant, lilymolly? and i confirmed that i am? and people aren't supposed to congratulate me, now? nice, very nice. i like your world view. "

No that was not the thread I was on about at all. That would make me a total bitch

Maybe there is a debate about the 'in-crowd' vs the 'others' because there is a grain of truth in it.

This thread makes uncomfortable reading.

Especially when it degenerates into stupid "change the subject" nonsense. That is self-affirming - look at me I am part of the in-crowd - bullying. And TBH is pretty juvenile.

This is an online chat room not a real life room. There really is no need to change the subject. You just don't participate!!

And for one MN to tell another that the thread was effectively dead so they shouldn't be bringing it up again is weird. Surely no one poster on here runs the site and can say that a thread is dead to another MN-er.

This has all got way out of control simply because someone came on to start a lighthearted thread and is was cut short immediately by someone who happened to be part of this in-crowd. Of course everyone has contrary opinions on things and they should be aired. But these should be left to those threads like AIBU or chatting about things.

Why come straight onto an obviously lighthearted thread like this and cut it dead. If offended surely you simply don't say anything at all?!!! It only makes the OP feel stupid and can start a ruck.

Or was that the intent.....

If so, it worked....

Pre DD, I never understood why mums with buggies went shopping on Saturdays (busiest day etc etc) now I understand that Sat is suddenly when your family/friends are off and that its perfectly natural (and ok, tee hee!!) to trot in to town to meet them.

DD is only 7 months so she doesnt mind shopping but I am sure the buggy and kit must infuriate other (non parent) shoppers! I dont mind though as they can go home and have a nap (like I used to!)

"This has all got way out of control simply because someone came on to start a lighthearted thread and was cut short immediately by someone who happened to be part of the in-crowd"

This happens loads on MN as in real life. There are certain posters on here who can kill a thread stone dead and really make the OP feel like crap. Some I think know it and some I dare say enjoy the power. Personally I come on MN for advice and a giggle and admittedly do enjoy the occasional bun fight. Thought this one turned horribly nasty though. As for the quote about this allegedly sneering women, looking and yearning for a child of their own (sorry can't be bothered to search and quote in full) what a load of tosh. I often felt unreasonably irritated by buggies in my way when I was charging around buying lipgloss for my big Saturday night out and I know my friends felt the same. The thwarted, yearning mother example (though I know there are some out there) was just a way to make the OP feel like a twat imo (why???).

Welcome to MN, Expo.

That was quite an outburst for your first post on MN - or did you namechange just for this thread?

There has been no bullying.

You commented "Of course everyone has contrary opinions on things and they should be aired. But these should be left to those threads like AIBU or chatting about things".

Are you suggesting that someone should only disagree with the OP if the thread is in AIBU or chat?

Because I don't think that would quite work on a public internet forum with thousands of members.

Well I went away for the weekend and thought I would just look in on this thread and hope that it had sunk to the bottom of the pile - no such luck!

Yes I did flounce off in the end, I guess I was just incredulous at the turn this thread had taken, and okay it was partly down to me responding to the second post.

As I work my way through this post I found I, or my post, have been called:

Victimish
Weird
Paranoid
Smug in relation to women that have had miscarriages or are infertile
Sneering at women that have had miscarriages or are infertile
Pathetic
Passive aggressive
Unable to tell the difference a filthy look and a woman that's looking at my child longingly
Horrid

And I actually think in a way it's a good thing, I now have looked at myself and realised that I care way too much about what other people think of me, a big character flaw imo.
I also didn't realise that the term childless was emotionally loaded, I have never experienced the hurt that some of you have on here and I apologise for that.

And okay I don't have the ability to write particularly amusing posts, there is a small group of you on here that are very good with your words, that can use them very effectively to praise and belittle, whatever takes your fancy, and I am not one of those. I obviously just come out with stupid posts that divide a good section of mners!

I am also not going to retract the fact that I did give filthy looks to people with their kids who were in my way. I did not want to be in the same public transport/supermarket queue/room as little people for a long time and I am deeply ashamed of that. I of course have learnt an enormous lesson since having my ds and go out of my way when possible to help mums with their dcs - possibly as an atonement for my past sins. Everybody has things they have done that they are not proud of.

I also do not detract the fact that the woman of Friday gave me a filthy look - a sneer if you like - and lol it was Canary Wharf Waitrose. And it was definitely not a longing look at my ds, I am old enough to tell the difference as are most people I think.

If I look back at my second post now, it was quite hostile, I guess I felt I had been made a fool of and responded in turn, and for that I apologise. Although it is no excuse, the night before I had only had about four hours of broken sleep and so that would probably account for some of my behaviour, but not all of it.

Anyway I think I will continue to lurk, maybe respond occassionally to some posts about feeding and pooing etc and leave those amusing posts to those with better language skills than me!

You know, I'm finding it interesting that so many people, including the OP herself, believe that the original post is lighthearted.

It actually seems quite angry to me. Or at any rate, superficially lighthearted but with a LOT of anger bubbling under the surface.

The OP's insistence that the thread is just for a laugh and her outrage at anyone who claims not to have had the same experience are weirdly at odds with one other.

I wonder if this issue (feeling insecure about how she appears in public with children) is perhaps more important to her than she realised when she started the thread.

Oops, cross posted with you Nina!

Sorry about talking about you in the 3rd person, had assumed you were long gone by now...

Excellent, thoughtful post that.

You know Welliemum you are right, I do have anger bubbling under the surface, unfortunately it is a result of a crap adolescence and I am just trying to deal with it now. And yes this thread has made me realise that I am insecure when I go out in public, I do worry enormously about what other people think of me and that is not a good thing.

It is interesting how this whole situation has made me realise a few home-truths.

I now do all my food shopping on-line as it works out cheaper to pay the delivery charge than to use the petrol to get to the store.
We are out in the sticks, so a trip to Tesco (closest store) would mean a 15 mile round trip!
And it's so nice to have the shopping delivered!

well thats a pretty impressive post nina

hats off

no worries about whether you can write something interesting

Agree with Zippi - you really write well, Nina.

I guess we all to a certain extent assume what others are thinking based on what we ourselves think (or thought).

In my case, when I'm at the supermarket without children I'm in my own little world, and unless someone else knocks me over, jumps up and down on my head and then steals my chocolate, they'll barely register in my consciousness.

So I tend to assume that other people are the same and have very little interest in me. That might be right or wrong, but it does make for a more relaxing shopping experience than caring about the thoughts of random strangers. Life's too short!

I thought your original post was funny, Nina (especially the reference to mini-tampons). And you did qualify your remarks with "you can tell what sort of evening I've had" after all.

Am a bit bewildered by the turn this thread has taken. But come to think of it, this quite often happens with supermarket related threads. What is it about the mention of supermarkets that brings out mumsnet's most primal aggression?

Excellent post - how to reflect gracefully and hold your own with dignity. Brilliant.

If your crap adolescence was parents-related, have a look at the 'stately homes' threads.

You can never tell when a seemingly innocuous comment is going to kick off a thread and everyone gets the arse.

brilliant post, nina - well argued and thoughful.

FWIW, I am an ancient mumsnetter, been around here since 2001 or so. I don't have a particualrly high profile here, but I suppose quite a lot of regulars know my name. I started a thread earlier this year, (not a humourous one but nothing too controversial I thought) and I got an amazing amount of negative messages - some quite personal. The amount of posts simply took my breath away

Didn't upset me as I have a skin like a rhino, but don't assume that you have to be new or unknown to get flamed.

Well posted, Nina

I nearly mentioned what Welliemum said, that maybe people were reacting because 'lighthearted' was underlayed with a lot of anger - IME unconscious/disowned anger usually results in a distracting ruck - but I didn't, because I thought you had left the thread so no point in making suggestions.

Hats off to you for using the thread in a positive way and getting hold of something for yourself in it all.

I'd be scared to use Canary Wharf Waitrose anyway, me

I think there have been enough anecdotes on here to vindicate the fact that Nina does have a point - there are some women who have no children who will be quite obviously rude or condescending/unhelpful in public to women who do.

Whether that's something that makes you laugh or cry, is another matter though!

So well said, Nina, and good on you for standing by your opinions.

That is quite a comeback Nina

I've been thinking about it and wonder if you and others who have been sneered at have somehow come across as a little insecure to strangers? That is not worded well, but when I was younger I was picked on and bullied in almost every situation. Some people seemed to sense my self consiousness and eagerness to please and so vented their frustrations on me. When I became happy, secure and confident, this stopped. Recently I've regularly taken a toddler to supermarkets looking scruffy, and as far as I know have only met smiles of approval.

I think if you are feeling frazzled and look at others worried that they dissaprove you'll find it. It might or might not reflect what is going on in their heads. There are all sorts of reasons for a curled lip. Most people are too busy thinking of themselves and their own situations to care how you look.

OP doesn't come across as a victim to me. Could be a London thing - she was in Canary Wharf remember. It's really not mumsie territory. If you are going to get sneered at for being feckless mum it's a pretty likely place for it to happen.

Yes, upwind, I think there are people, like myself, who are insecure and therefore get a bit picked on by strangers - or we perceive we get picked on.
I never regret having my ds, but after pregnancy and all that I packed on quite a few pounds, and that made me even more insecure, it makes me wonder when I am walking down the road about people staring at my wobbly bits. And if I really stop and use my brain I know that they are not - they don't give a flying toss about me - it is all a bit distorted in my head but once again that is something I have to work on.

I also think my OP was a bit of enviousness too, for those of you that haven't been to Canary wharf there are a lot of beautiful women there, dressed immaculately, thin and with perfect makeup. I felt a bit frazzled on that day it all seemed a bit overwhelming really.

Note to self: don't go there on a bad day again!

I've never been to waitrose at Canary Wharf but I do have two close female friends who work nearby. One of them would always fit your description perfectly, she physically can't have children & so has thrown herself into her career working crazy hours. She is one of my best friends and fifteen years ago would have imagined she would become a high flyer. The other can't seem to make a relationship last, is desperate for a family and painfully aware of her biological clock ticking away. Desperation and the big city make it next to impossible for her to establish a healthy relationship.

So based on that tiny and unrepresentative sample, Aitch might not be too far off the mark as far as the lettuce buying women go - though I can't really imagine my friends sneering, I know that when I was ttcing at length, it sometimes hurt seeing bumps and gorgeous new babies. And right after the midwife appointment from hell last week I passed a woman with a newborn and found myself grimacing at what I might lose. God knows what the poor woman imagined I was thinking!