Unconditional Parenting

[KTNoo]

I know there have been threads about this approach before, but I just had to share this....

I bought this Alfie Kohn book a couple of weeks ago, and OMG, WHAT a relief! My ds in particular is like a different child, but I can see differences in the 2 dds as well.

I always used praise/warnings/time-outs. I had a feeling they were not working. My parents told me I didn't praise my dc enough. It is such a relief to not feel I have to praise them for every little thing. They are happy with "you did it" or similar. This evening ds(5) wouldn't get into the bath. I asked why not and he said he didn't want to stop playing. I said I understood that but he needed to stop soon and have a bath because we need to wash ourselves blah blah blah. He didn't move so I took the dds upstairs and got on with the bath. ds came upstairs a few minutes later and lay on his bed. A few minutes after that he appeared in the bathroom and started taking off his clothes. I didn't say anything, just helped him climb in. It was unbelievable. Before, I would have coerced/counted to 3/threatened no story etc, he would have got into the bath in a foul mood and I would have ended up all stressed out. Instead we had a lovely relaxed bath and story time and he went to bed quite happy.

I know this must sound like nothing much to those of you who have been using this approach instinctively. But I was brought up on a diet of threats and "sugar-coated control" (as the book calls it) so I guess I just did the same.

It's also much more relaxing to think before stopping the dc doing something "why not?". Today they brought their pillows downstairs and started doing sack races in the garden, and I thought "why not?" Unfortunately my mum told them to put them back!

Sorry this is long but I had to share my enthusiasm. Anyone else like this book?

I think I instinctively 'get' the gist of UP as it's appearing here - have always had trouble, myself, with "Because I Said So" parenting.

Teaching is of course a different scenario, and I've certainly taught kids (older teens) who do just want to challenge your authority. ime they usually find different ways of doing it than simply questioning a rule, however.

Seems to me also, that if you (have the time) can get your head around where the kid is at, you'd be less likely to want to explode anyway. Funnily enough kiskidee you helped me see that, about a year ago

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exactly phd. the whole point of the book is about seeing where your kid is at and preventing melt downs etc before they happen. getting down to the kid's level, imagining how they see it etc.

i think someone said earlier the author has actually done other books about the same sort of method in the classroom and another about it in the workplace.

i'm yet to decide whether it would work for all children, as i only have one (and one on the way) and i am yet to find my 2.2 year old in a terrible 2s scenario...but maybe that means it's working??

I've not read Alfie Kohn, and might do one day but I agree with what Custy said earlier, of course we shouldn't be really anal about mess/noise etc but if I let my three do what they wanted all the time my house would be wrecked.

For those who are parenting boys I'd definitely recommend Raising boys by Steve Biddulph, I only got it friday and have noticed some major things in our family that I'd never thought of before.

In fact, I think I'll start a thread on that book separately.

I can see how it all sounds like old fashioned discipline, Juule. All societies, even one in the Amazonian rainforests have a set of protocols, most undiscussed because it has 'always been like that' which everyone else around the child has already bought into so there is never a need for explanations, because like children in our society, their children instinctively prefer to conform.

When there are 22 kids basically following the instruction in a classroom, and one is pushing against the boundary, it is phenomenally easier to walk away and leave the child with the knowledge that he is to finish the exercise, or whatever. At home, it maybe brushing teeth. The child does not really need reminding of a sanction in the classroom in this scenario but allowed to be choose what they do next. What they tend to choose is compliance not to please me, but to not be different from the rest.

At home, I truly believe in not sweating the small stuff. There are few things which I think I would not accommodate according to the specific set of circumstances for that day. But it is also important to be mindful of what your long term intentions need to be. In a classroom environment, I don't have that luxury because children have a keen sense of fairness which is a double edged sword, so on a given day, I cannot break a rule for one but expect others to follow it.

When I walk away and begin to ignore, I am letting the child 'chew on' their choices: To comply or not to comply. School is not home, like you say, because there are sets of sanctions set by others, not the classroom teacher, but there are also subtler sanctions which can work before you have allowed things to 'go too far' and have to bring those sanctions into play.

Here is a way their fairmindedness plays into your hand too: I can't do that because that is not fair:As long as they are in the frame of mind to listen 'explanations' like, 'everyone else is expected to do x and you are asking me to treat you differently. to them/ to you/to me.' Note: kid has not asked WHY yet. You have provided a WHY in a general way, before you or he gets into a more recalcitrant mode.

When I notice unobtrusively that the child has complied, I don't praise or reward at this point, I just stop ignoring them and I treat them more inclusively. I don't praise what is expected of everyone. I praise, or rather, recognise when they have gone further then they have previously been able to go before. Not: wow! fantastic job! More like: that piece of work is really good because it shows more detail, insight etc or: I haven't seen you use that word/phrase before etc. At home the 'praise' may be: you tidied your room/ filled the dishwasher really quickly and so we could get outside sooner, blah blah. Praise, aka, the bribe is not the end in itself, it is a way of opening a two way dialogue which humanises me to the child and humanises the child to me.

The long term goal is to build a trusting relationship so the child is less likely feel like he needs or wants an explanation / a reward / do something with conditions attached in the first place.

KTNoo regarding the bath toy, you were protecting another child and you had already warned your DS so I think you did the right thing.

What I have started doing in these circumstances (when I am not frazzled)is:
1)reminding of rule and why eg 'no hitting, hitting hurts'
2)if the child doesn't stop I take the 'weapon' away
3)then when I have got their full attention I explain the rule again (often when they are behaving like this it's because they are so excited that they don't hear me first time)
4)then I give back the 'weapon' to give them a second chance to play with the toy in a way that doesn't hurt others. That way it isn't a punishment.

So far this has worked but if they were continuing to misuse the toy I wouldn't hesitate to remove it until the next bath time.

"exactly phd. the whole point of the book is about seeing where your kid is at and preventing melt downs etc before they happen. getting down to the kid's level, imagining how they see it etc."

amen.

halleluja more like!

Parenting is such a minefield, on here people are saying (apropos Alfie Kohn) "Listen to your child and don't make an issue of things that don't really matter" -- on other MN threads people are saying "I'm the boss in my house and my authority is absolute, the children do what I say because I said so" or shouting "Who is the adult and who is the child here?" (When did the child become the boss? thread, etc.)

It does my head in...

lljk, you must take only what feels right to you and use it.

In our house we have a mish mash of styles.

I like to think why the child is behaving the way they are, ask them why and what happened (us adults often miss things) explain why we don't do things, talk through feelings and how to handle them but still have appropriate sanctions for unacceptable behaviour.
It works for us and the DC's are pretty good at knowing and happily sticking to, the rules.

toomuchmonthattheendofthemoney.

You could be me I'm trying to persuade my DH that there is another way. Our ds (2.1) only throws when tired, and I just don't feel that bahvioural type punishments give you anything other than a trained monkey; surely it's just storing up trouble for later.

I must make him read the book!

I'm finding this thread really interesting, particularly hearing from mothers of large broods who use these techniques. I only have one DS atm who has just turned 2, and try to parent along similar lines but find it a bit crushing when people/posters say things along the line of PFB etc.

I have found recently that DS was starting to kick off over things like meal-times, didn;t want to sit down with us etc. I know of friends who use naughty steps/chairs for this sort of thing and it just seemed to OTT. What I've started doing is offering him more choice, and chance to get involved. For example, he now helps to lay the table at breakfast-time, gets to choose his cereal (it's always the same thing!) and help to pour the milk. He then eats no probs. It's made things less stressful.

I've always taken the path of least resistance where poss, try to only intervene if things are dangerous - him or others getting hurt etc.

The praise thing is interesting tho... is there such a thing as too much?

yes i think there is. with UP you want your child to be self motivated rather than looking for praise from you all the time for their self esteem. the theory being that a child constantly receiving praise will continue to require this through to adulthood.

So it's about finding the balance between too much and not enough then... My dad had an older father who didn't believe in praise at all I think. My dad spent his whole life waiting for his father to tell him he was good at something

it's basically the opposit of supernanny where you ignaore bad behaviour and over the top praise normal behaviour. that's telling the child i only like you when you do what i say.

you want your child to come to you and say ooooh look what i did. then you ask them how they did it etc. so rather than you wooooping all the time, you get them to be pleased for themselves.

It's also the quality of the praise.

IIRC, according to AK, you need to notice the small achievements but not enthuse about them. Nothing wrong with a heartfelt gush if your child has done something really marvellous. He says your child will become a praise junkie if you say 'good job!' every time your child does something simple like slide down a slide.

(After my trip last year to the USA, I have to agree 'good job!' is seriously overused in playgrounds!)

"Seems to me also, that if you (have the time) can get your head around where the kid is at, you'd be less likely to want to explode anyway. Funnily enough kiskidee you helped me see that, about a year ago."

Don't know in what context i could have said it but I think that 'The Social Toddler' by Helen and Clive Dorman is where I got these ideas from. From my viewpoint a teenage tantrum and a toddler tantrum are the same thing. Just the scale and contexts are different. Having a child has taught me a lot about how to deal and view with teenage tantrums.

loved social toddler too. and social baby saw me through the early days.

It's staggering the way thesecharlatans get rich by pointing out the bleedin' obvious to all manner of desperate and insecure folk. Very sad indictment of our times.

you bloody spoil sport moondog.

it's a good book.

Actually when I read the book it wasn't obvious to me (although most of it makes good sense) having only ever come across 'ignore the bad, praise the good' style parenting and 'do as I say so or I'll shout at you and possibly hit you' parenting.

But I have at times been a desperate parent with few people with experience to turn to for advice (until I found mn!)

Wasn't obvious to me either. Having said that, now that I've read the book it does feel instinctively right to me. I always felt like I should be praising more, even though it felt a bit fake and I now know why.

I notice my dh was using a lot of UP instinctively, I assume due to HIS more UP upbringing. His parents are still like this with our dc, unlike mine who get in 100 "good girls/boys" per hour, and also "remember that sticker book you wanted..." as a warning if they are not "being good."

the approach is very different for a lot of people as it's not what is seen around in the majority and is certainly not the approach of most childcare 'gurus.' i think alfie kohn is quite the opposite of these charlatans.

lol at KTNoo. my PILs are sooo like this. they totally swamp dd with over praise, warnings, 'no's etc etc. i keep saying, she's ok doing that, or it's ok she can have pudding without finishing her main..they think i'm far too lax. to them it is obvious to say no constantly to most things a toddler wants to do.

I'm not desperate or insecure, and neither will my children be.

I orded this book before dicovering this thread & I now cannot wait for it to arrive!

At heart I get UC. But I get caught up in my own problems & loose the plot sometimes. I need to take a step back and value my little girl for the wonderful person she is proving to be & this book sounds like the key to that.

I hope the book will echo my good parenting side, open my eyes to the benefits of love and respect and encourage me to be more consistent. Can't wait.