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Unconditional Parenting

135 replies

KTNoo · 01/08/2008 23:03

I know there have been threads about this approach before, but I just had to share this....

I bought this Alfie Kohn book a couple of weeks ago, and OMG, WHAT a relief! My ds in particular is like a different child, but I can see differences in the 2 dds as well.

I always used praise/warnings/time-outs. I had a feeling they were not working. My parents told me I didn't praise my dc enough. It is such a relief to not feel I have to praise them for every little thing. They are happy with "you did it" or similar. This evening ds(5) wouldn't get into the bath. I asked why not and he said he didn't want to stop playing. I said I understood that but he needed to stop soon and have a bath because we need to wash ourselves blah blah blah. He didn't move so I took the dds upstairs and got on with the bath. ds came upstairs a few minutes later and lay on his bed. A few minutes after that he appeared in the bathroom and started taking off his clothes. I didn't say anything, just helped him climb in. It was unbelievable. Before, I would have coerced/counted to 3/threatened no story etc, he would have got into the bath in a foul mood and I would have ended up all stressed out. Instead we had a lovely relaxed bath and story time and he went to bed quite happy.

I know this must sound like nothing much to those of you who have been using this approach instinctively. But I was brought up on a diet of threats and "sugar-coated control" (as the book calls it) so I guess I just did the same.

It's also much more relaxing to think before stopping the dc doing something "why not?". Today they brought their pillows downstairs and started doing sack races in the garden, and I thought "why not?" Unfortunately my mum told them to put them back!

Sorry this is long but I had to share my enthusiasm. Anyone else like this book?

OP posts:
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duchesss · 03/08/2008 13:57

Hi

I've come to this thread quite late in the day but I just want to share my enthusiasm and say yes I've read this book too and it totally turned my life around. I can't empahsise enough how much, it was honestly as though I'd undergone a religious conversion!

Up until the point of reading it we were at our wits end with DS (then 3, now 4). But also instinctively felt uneasy with all the supernanny type methods everyone was suggesting. It just somehow didn't feel like me but I wasn't sure why. DH and to a lesser extent me were both brought up with physical punishment and we'd long established that was a road we were NEvEr going down. We're both generally very liberal but I think the legacy of our upbringing was causing tension with our instinctive feelings of how we wanted to do it differently.

Then I read this book and the penny dropped. Like it says on the blurb, it's a paradigm shift. You don't actually need to be 'in control' of your children to be a successful parent! Hurrah!

I could go on and on but just from skim reading this thread I will say that it's not always easy. Especially when, as we are, you're battling with the legacy of your own upbringing. DS1 at his worst will still attack DS2 (now 11 months) for no apparent reason, break things on purpose and it's incredibly hard to manage that... we want it to stop immediately but DS is in a completely different place and I'm slowly learning to understand and respect that.

I also find it very hard to remain authentic to my instincts in the company of others... it's made me realise how much of my stresses with DS's are about worrying about how what others will think. Which really isn't fair on them. It's been a very helpful, but currently somewhat isolated epiphany!

Another book I've read recently and found very helpful is 'Raising Children, Raising Ourselves' by Naomi Aldort. It's a bit more sentimenal/amerciany than the Kohn in how it's written but it really struck a chord with me in its central message of understanding how much of your responses to stressful situations are about you and not about your child. It's all about taking a step back and listening to what's going on in your head and then putting aside your own needs to come back to later and becoming present with your child.

I don't always get it right, only yesterday I was screaming blue murder at my poor DS and I felt awful about it for the rest of the day. But it's great to have a clearer picture of the kind of parent I'm striving to be.

KTNoo · 03/08/2008 15:05

juuule sums it up very well. I did understand from the book that it's not about having no boundaries at all. A friend of mine uses a lot of the UP approach and has a lovely relationship with her dcs, never shouts etc. But, when they come to my house they are always doing things I don't want them to like turning on every appliance in my kitchen! And she doesn't do anything to try and stop them, I think that's the point.

Yes I am trying not to say no without thinking first if I really need to say no, but I would not sit back and watch my dcs turning on someone else's dishwasher.

Yesterday I watched supernanny through new eyes. The child was in the naughty spot for going up the stairs!? Why can the child not go up the stairs? If there is stuff upstairs the child should not touch then surely the environment could be altered to be made safer? I wouldn't have a battle over that personally.

OP posts:
KTNoo · 03/08/2008 15:07

My friend's dc are 5 and 7, I should have said, i.e. old enough to understand why it is dangerous to play with electrical appliances!

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

juuule · 03/08/2008 15:16

KTnoo Regardless of whether it's dangerous or not, it's rude and impolite and your friend should say something. I'd be tempted to if she didn't.

Constance I got that it was a joke
and I'm sure your lot aren't a nasty, horrible bunch (well not all the time -much like my lot)

KTNoo · 03/08/2008 15:19

juuule, I think I will have to! It's very annoying.

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cheesesarnie · 03/08/2008 15:49

i think it sounds good(also like sound of 'how to talk etc') is it for all ages?

but i do agree on middle ground.

BlessThisMess · 03/08/2008 16:35

kiskidee

Maybe talking about the Jean Liedloff article is OT and we should take it to another thread? Am not too well up on the protocol here!

But anyway, I read that article long ago, yes, when DD1 was very young, and thought I was living/acting that way. Maybe I have just stopped doing that so much - things definitely changed when DD2 came along, and I do feel that I was a confident parent until DD1 was about 5 and now don't feel very confident about what I am doing at all - no wonder with all the difficulties.

I'm very interested to hear you say it works with teens though. And isn't it diametrically opposed to the OP/Unconditional Parenting philosophy? Maybe that makes it still worth discussing here?

juuule · 03/08/2008 16:49

It's a long time since I read CC so I may be off a bit here.

I regard CC and UP as coming from the same angle in that both regard children as fully human, just inexperienced. They are deserving of as much consideration and respect as much as any other human being only with additional allowances for their inexperience. They are expected to want to fit in (sometimes in their own way) into the society they are born into and so are deserving of explanations of why we do things the way we do. Very young children will respond to discussing the whys and wherefores of why something should or shouldn't be done. That doesn't mean they'll never have a tantrum if they don't get their own way at times (just like some adults)
I can't see any conflict with CC and UP.
)

juuule · 03/08/2008 16:52

Hmmm - "fully human"? maybe a bit of poncey phrase. Can't think of another way to put it at the moment.

kiskidee · 03/08/2008 18:59

I agree that CC and UP are v. similar styles of parenting. I have not read AK just going from what I see people on MN saying about it.

Blessthismess: WRT teens and even younger, I will look for a thread i posted on a couple months ago which talks of how teachers (me, for one and my dept as a whole) deal with hormonal boys. We apparently have a rep in the school for the discipline in the dept, without conflict with the boys, I may add.

can't say if I will find it though.

kiskidee · 03/08/2008 19:15

here it is.

ruddynorah · 03/08/2008 19:23

i loved this book. just wish dh would read it too

it is a paradigm shift. it makes me cringe when i hear parents say 'when i get to three..' or 'you must stay on the step for 3 minutes..'

kiskidee · 03/08/2008 19:34

a friend of mine did this 1-2-3 thing with her then 26 month old. DH said 1-2-3 in a convo for some reason, the poor kid panicked and looked v confused as it seemed he was trying to figure out what he was doing wrong.

My friend just laughed it off and just said, oh, that happens sometimes with us too. I felt a bit sad for him.

Pitchounette · 03/08/2008 19:45

Message withdrawn

KTNoo · 03/08/2008 20:27

Today I have:

Let dcs put toy make up all over themselves and bathroom and walked to park without taking any of it off (think ENTIRELY blue faces....)

Refrained from saying anything when ds was basically eating ketchup with a spoon and ignoring most of his dinner. Decided I didn't really mind that much as long as some of the food went in.

Managed not make any threats when ds was screaming for ages and refusing to clear all his craft things off the table so we could eat dinner. He did eventually do it with me after some discussion. I THINK I remained calm and even walked out of the room at one point after asking him again to put his things away. When I came back he said again he didn't want to tidy but then started putting things in the box! Wow.

Did however take bath toy away from ds after a warning as he was repeatedly whacking dd2 with it. Not sure what I should have done? Because he was winding me up I wasn't as patient as I could have been getting them ready and dd2 ended up in a temper because I put her pyjamas on and she wanted to do it herself. At least I know what I should have done!

We will get there I think.

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PhDlifeNeedsaNewLife · 03/08/2008 21:13

this is still ticking over in my brain, never read an MN thread so carefully!

Think what I meant by boundaries about acceptable behavior: no hitting/biting, standing on the dining room table, kind of thing. So long as you put safety first, I guess you can be more flexible about these (eg. KTNoo's dcs going out with blue faces - KT you would've got a HUGE grin from me if I'd seen them!!) Obviously these have to be very consistent - standing on the table is never funny or clever.

On the other hand, what I meant about there needing to be "boundaries between adult and child" was, it seemed some of the "no boundary" discussions wanted to give child's opinion equal weight with the parent. (I guess also within parameters of safety/timetables?)

But (not sure if I'm getting this right) some others, such as kiskidee, seemed to say those kids could not then function when they got to school and had to obey a teacher just because they're in the position of authority. (Is that what was meant?)

And then again, some dc's get anxious/tantrummy, if they feel they have too much responsibility for their own decisions?? Am I getting that right?

I'm going to have to get the books, aren't I. Yes, yes I am.

The thing is, I have always been very eeurgh about my dsis's very strict, confrontational ways of dealing with her dc's (lifted largely from our very "Because I Said So" parents), and I want a sense of how relaxed flexible (egalitarian??) I can be, without creating a spoilt little monster!

PinkTulips · 03/08/2008 21:25

it sounds like one of those things that would suit some kids but certainly not others.

ds is the type of child who if i ask him to do something and he refuses, ignoring him and getting on with it is very effective.

he's barely 2 and automatically says please, thank you and you're welcome without being prompted as he hears us saying it and likes to copy older kids and adults.

dd on the other hand would relish in just being allowed to continue being naughty.... if she refused to come to the bathroom and i walked off and relied on her to follow i'd be waiting months! (have tried it so speaking from experiance there) and she couldn't give a rats ass about 'following social norms' if it interupted her playtime (read hitting ds)

ruddynorah · 03/08/2008 21:32

phd- for me it's about raising a child who would understand the reasoning behind rules at school anyway, because those rules should have good reason behind them. at home she has rules explained to her. i ask her what she thinks will happen if she does x.

i would hope that dd wouldn't just go ahead and obey a teacher if she didn't understand why she should, i would be delighted if she questioned the rule. that may seem terrible to some people. but i want dd to think, not just blindly obey.

this doesn't mean i want her to misbehave, just that i want her to behave because she wants to. so far so good, she is 2.2 btw

KTNoo · 03/08/2008 21:44

Yes PhDm we did get some amused looks!

I think at school the teachers often don't have the time to explain as much as we would like. We had a situation with dd1 refusing to join in with PE at school a while ago. The teacher spoke to me about it after it had happened a few times. She had been giving dd the choice of either joining in nicely or going back to class. When I talked to dd about it she eventually said she wasn't joining in because she didn't like losing at the games they played. After I acknowledged that and we talked about how it doesn't feel good to lose but that we can't always win etc, she joined in better. I imagine if the teacher had taken the time to talk to her at the beginning it would not have become a regular occurrence. But I know that's not easy for teachers. My dd is still really competitive though - I dread board games.

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BlessThisMess · 03/08/2008 22:58

The reason I said that UP and CC seemed to be diametrically opposed is because kiskidee said "I teach teens and I know that explanations, talking about feeling etc is not the way to go. That sort of thing means teachers get walked over." CC seems to say you should go about your own business without endless explanations to your child as to why something should be done a certain way. Doesn't it? Whereas UP seems to promote lots of explanations and talking about feelings.

toomuchmonthatendofthemoney · 04/08/2008 00:20

I have read this thread with great interest, as ds is now 2.2 and i'm finding dh' idea of starting to use a "naughty corner" with him (in just the last few weeks) is making me feel a bit uneasy.

I can't really put my finger on it, it just seems to be repetitive its not changing his behaviour. The main thing he gets put in the corner for is throwing stuff, like drinky cups or big toys, particularly if towards me or dh. Into corner, he says sorry, we say ok life goes on, he throws stuff, back into corner....... i just feel there should be another way. Normally he's a really easy going fun little boy but when he gets tired towards bedtime he goes a little loopy - which is when dh sees him of course, when home from work.

Am very interested in what has been said as it seems to fit better with my instincts. Time to pay a visit to the library?

ConstanceWearing · 04/08/2008 00:51

I think I'm going to get this book actually. I always wanted my children to be polite, but able to stick up for themselves if they need to. Not to be pushovers, but to want to help others because they are empathic.

Some of my DC's be too old to change now. But I really would like to know what the book says. I really, really hate discipline that squashes a child's individuality. But neither do I like spoilt brats ['scuse the phrase).

This book sounds really interesting.

kiskidee · 04/08/2008 05:36

But (not sure if I'm getting this right) some others, such as kiskidee, seemed to say those kids could not then function when they got to school and had to obey a teacher just because they're in the position of authority. (Is that what was meant?)"

The explanation thing is not a straightforward thing. Remember i am talking with a teacher head here because I am the parent of a 3.5yo.

Don't give explanations when a child is challenging your authority. At this time, the child is treating you as an equal and they most certainly are not. It is better to break off contact, remove the child or yourself from the room before losing your cool or getting shouty. You losing control is a sign to kids that they are
controlling you. As early as you can identify that the outcome is heading down an familiar negative path, break off the contact by sending child to his room etc. At home you may find that you leaving the room for a few minutes may give the child time to 'save face', and they may comply in that time. Or say something like, when that song finishes, the next commercial break starts, etc, you should do X or Y. It gives the child a few minutes to cool down and a 'save face' in which to follow instruction.

Only have a discussion with a child after they have shown by body language, not necessarily words, or have followed an instruction. It doesn't have to be right away but only when you are sure they are being compliant mode, not necessarily when they are doing the job, maybe sometime later. But keep it brief. It is after they are complaint that you can discuss reasons for your expectations, appeal to their empathy or even say embarrassing things like if I didn't care, I would not punish you / expect you to follow rule X because I would not care how other people see you/ how you turned out when you are older, etc.

If you are trying to break a cycle of established bad behaviour, it is beneficial to lay out certain defined sanctions for not complying with basic household rules. This way, when a child breaks the rule, they already know what will happen. You can only briefly remind the existence of that rule when a child is not being compliant and if they defy it, the sanction has to be followed. Hopefully you have another half (at school it is a colleague who you can send the child to be supervised with) to whom the child may resort for appeal, only to find that your other half backs up the rule rather than undermine it. Having a partner there gives you relief. The child also has relief from the situation but the child also finds someone who will reinforce the rule. (the rule! not take your side).

There are some children who are experts at playing off one parent figure off another and come to school and try to play one member of staff off another. These are the kids who are problematic because they the most difficult to accept that they are not your equal. For them, explanation really is room for negotiating a more equal footing with you, ie get their way. Unfortunately they can be unhappy for a long time before tehy 'get it' and I can't say that there are easy ways breaking their expectations. The change if you are in this problem has to start with the parents cooperating with each other which may have its own set of issues why this problem occurred in the first instance.

There are some kids who accept your authority and you find that over time you can discuss the whys of a rule but be careful when you hold this discussion. Not when a child is not in the mood to follow the rule. These are the same kids however who least need to have rules and sanctions - and they bring this behaviour from home. When I find myself punishing these children, they accept that they are wrong anyway and accept their punishment without whinging.
++++++++++++++++

as I said, Blessthismess, I have not read AK so I don't know how he fits the explanation thing into the picture.

This was a long ramble but hopefully it makes sense to some of you.

juuule · 04/08/2008 07:36

Kiskidee - Your last post does not sound anything like UP to me. It sounds very authoritarian which UP is not.
UP is not particularly about getting a child to comply with your wishes but more about trying to find solutions that suit both sides. I realise that's not always possible as a teacher at school. It is also difficult with teens especially when they are blustering and determined not to lose face in front of friends and a teacher can't appear to lose face. That, to me, is a different situation to being a home with your children. The same things may be occurring but a longer negotiating time is possible while the parent can consider whether what they are asking is reasonable and the child can think things through, too.

AK also wrote Punished by Rewards which might be more appropriate to try to transfer to a school setting as he discusses the workplace, too. However, I'm not sure that schools systems would easily accommodate his ideas but there would be no harm in trying these things at an individual level, maybe. I'm not a teacher so no experience there. Just a suggestion.
As a teacher you might also find some of AKs articles interesting AK articles

Blessthismess CC and UP both consider a child to want to be part of the society they are in. Both think that a child's questions should be answered and not expect a child to blindly obey orders just because the adult said so. Children will try to copy adults and usually want to join in so if I remember correctly the yequana let the children follow them around, join in with day to day living and eventually become an adult with the skills necessary to be a part of the community. If you read both books you will see the similarities. Children are not regarded as a seperate species to be tamed they are seen as needing guidance and deserving of explanations as to why things are done the way they are.

Sorry for going OT anywhere in that lot.

Paddlechick666 · 04/08/2008 09:15

Okay, the cosmos is clearly talking to me and I need to listen!

I started this book back in March/April when dd was being quite challenging and I was being very reactive/controlling/cross etc etc.

I found it very very difficult to read as it really held up a mirror to my crapness and "carrot/stick" parenting rut.

Anyways, I did/still do try to keep UP in mind but I stopped reading the book.

It came up in conversation with a friend yesterday and now I spot this thread. I've also slipped back into old habits and don't feel good about that.

I do find it very difficult tho. I'm a single parent and I work full time and I'm very tired most of the time. Patience is not in big supply and I find it very hard not to slip into what I call my Nike frame of mind: "Just Do IT!!!!!"

Back to the book me-thinks, I really do not want to become my mother because I'd quite like it if dd and I could have a good adult relationship.