Unconditional Parenting

[KTNoo]

I know there have been threads about this approach before, but I just had to share this....

I bought this Alfie Kohn book a couple of weeks ago, and OMG, WHAT a relief! My ds in particular is like a different child, but I can see differences in the 2 dds as well.

I always used praise/warnings/time-outs. I had a feeling they were not working. My parents told me I didn't praise my dc enough. It is such a relief to not feel I have to praise them for every little thing. They are happy with "you did it" or similar. This evening ds(5) wouldn't get into the bath. I asked why not and he said he didn't want to stop playing. I said I understood that but he needed to stop soon and have a bath because we need to wash ourselves blah blah blah. He didn't move so I took the dds upstairs and got on with the bath. ds came upstairs a few minutes later and lay on his bed. A few minutes after that he appeared in the bathroom and started taking off his clothes. I didn't say anything, just helped him climb in. It was unbelievable. Before, I would have coerced/counted to 3/threatened no story etc, he would have got into the bath in a foul mood and I would have ended up all stressed out. Instead we had a lovely relaxed bath and story time and he went to bed quite happy.

I know this must sound like nothing much to those of you who have been using this approach instinctively. But I was brought up on a diet of threats and "sugar-coated control" (as the book calls it) so I guess I just did the same.

It's also much more relaxing to think before stopping the dc doing something "why not?". Today they brought their pillows downstairs and started doing sack races in the garden, and I thought "why not?" Unfortunately my mum told them to put them back!

Sorry this is long but I had to share my enthusiasm. Anyone else like this book?

Reading that article reminded me of being in the park a few weeks ago. There was a mother there with her (possibly pfb) son of about 18 months to 2 years old. He kept shutting her out of the park gate and then letting her in again and the mum was saying "oh,does Harry not want mummy in the park? Ohhh" Every time he squealed, she jumped back through the gate. When she came to actually try and take him out of the park she totally failed and was standing there being let in/shut out/let in for about 20 minutes.

I did the look to dp and said "she will ULTRA regret this when he gets a bit older"!

But what's the alternative to taking things at the child's pace? Much of the clashing of needs stuff,i.e. parent versus child,comes because we have deadlines and appointments and ideals. I'd like to think I could try the approach outlined in the OP when it is morning school run, and let it all happen in its own good time but I KNOW it would involbe getting up at 5am and I don't have hours to wait for these things (dammit!).Does anybody? My rant and rave technique isn't much better but we do get to school before lunch as a rule.

Interesting comment re.children having too much control. When I behaviour coach families I soemtimes see children who are very bright and are, essentially lesding the way in terms of their environment and uprbinging. It is my view that they find this secretly terrifying and it leads to many behaviours such as OCD and selective mutism in extreme cases- ways of being in control of things they feel capaable ofcontrollign rather than the things they are controllign (such as aprents reactions) which in honesty they are not confident in.

I like Biddulph's views on boys in 'raising boys'which seems to be workign with what you've got...in this case 'maleness' and not doing the round peg square hole thing with kids.

That's my ideal: clear boundaries, parenting children as individuals rather than as simply 'children' and commanding respect through simplicity, fairness and consistency.

Actuslly I may be rambling inanely.

it didn't seem inane to me, but then I've been wondering about this stuff for a little while.

When you say "clear boundaries", do you mean for behaviour? Or between parent and child? Does boundary = hierarchy?

Bless this mess - I role play how his actions have affected other people and how they have made other's feel rather than the incident itself. Also how he could handle things in the future. I use social stories for things that he HAS to do that but that he avoids, like getting ready for school so that we aren't all late. I haven't bought anything for it, I just draw pictures with speech and thought bubbles. I have seen a few social stories though so I know what they're about.

I mean for behaviour. Am now thinking about the 'between parent and child' thing.

I just hold the view that it is very difficult for children to understand what is expected and what earns them approval if the boundaries are a little (or a lot!) flexible. Children learn through positive gestures such as smiles, the upward lilt of motherese, a positive comment such as 'well done' or 'thank you' and this learning becomes part of the foundation for learning familial and social ideals. If a behaviour earns a reprimand one day, and is ignored or even laughed at the next how on earth is any of it going to make sense?

I do think children need strong cues from adults and so walking away and waiting for relisation to dawn is expecting a lot of most children. But then again, isn't that whole approach just same old 'removing negative attention' stuff, so nothing that new there really. Time out for the child achieves the same - this is just the parent taking time out instead!

As for boundaries between parent and child, how would you envisage those PhD? I'mnot sure how to go about thinking about that yet!

This is all very interesting for me.

Constancewearing, I don't know if my ds is scared of toilets. I will ask him why he doesn't want to go. He says he doesn't need it when I know he does. There are times when he definitely doesn't want to stop what he's doing to go to the toilet. This has been happening for over a year now. I do wonder if he doesn't feel he needs to go until he REALLY needs to go, but all the dancing around surely gives it away?!

From what I can see so far, this approach does involve boundaries but there is much more discussion over why a boundary is there and flexibility to take the child's opionion into account.

Have managed this with varying success today. I will keep trying. I do feel more relaxed and enjoy my kids more. At the moment we are on a very relaxed schedule so I'm interested to see what happens when 2 kids have to be ready for school/playgroup. Today dd2 was bawling as we left the house but because we were late for meeting a friend I bundled her into the car, which just made her more angry. When she calmed down enought to ask her what was wrong it was only that she wanted her snack in her bag and not in my bag. If I had taken a few minutes to talk to her we would have avoided all the crying, but time pressure got the better of me.

Re time-out, the book talks a lot about choice, i.e. the difference between an enforced time-out and a child being invited to go into their room to cool down.

excellent book although it did nake me cry and re assess my parenting skills life is now much calmer and my ds1 is so much happier. never got on with time out but then never liked supernanny but thats a different thread!1

The reviews look amazing, I'm going to order it from the library.

Sounds interesting, I think I really need to try another approach with DS1 (8.11) who is going through a really difficult phase these holidays (anyone know if boys have a testosterone surge at this age because he is FAR worse than at Easter break).

He is really challenging authority which I can understand because he has been expected to grow up a lot at school during Year 3 and wants more independence and not to be treated same as Ds2 (4.9). The real problem however is that he is having UNCONTROLLABLE rages about what seems to me trivial things usually involving DS2 eg today it was because DS2 touched the wrong (belonging to DS1 not DS2) venus fly trap plant and made the leaves close up! Hardly the end of the world but he had a major tantrum, screaming, hitting floor etc, far worse than when he was a toddler! My way of handling it has been to send him to room until he calms down and then try and discuss why he got so angry but DP thinks I am too soft and wants real punishments.

Does anyone who has used this approach know whether this book might help?

I would imagine it works really well with older kids, cluttered. My eldest is only 7 but I can see the difference in her attitude if I talk to her and consider her opinions rather just telling her to do things. She is doing it because she wants to comply, rather than doing it grumpily because I am forcing her to.

Also the How to talk etc (mentioned here)approach is good as you focus on the child's feelings and why they are angry or whetever, rather than just trying to fix the problem.

Aside from all the other reasons Kohn advises against punishments, they just don't seem to work (for me anyway). Same goes for rewards imo. Even stuff like stickers for potty training - after a while dd got fed up and started peeing her pants, in anticipation of a bigger reward I imagine!

This is making a lot of sense to me. I was brought up with a huge emphasis on "being good" so it's proving hard for me to relax a bit about my dc's behaviour and look more long term.

there is a middle ground.

i firmly believe that children need boundries - those i have witnessed who do not have it actibley seek it usually with unruly behaviour.

however there should aslo be a "fuck it" side - eg with the pillow cases.

some parents get over anal - with the food, with the education even with clothes and cleanliness etc.

theres times and places for things - there are a lot of clearly designated appropriate times for this and that - bedtime, dinner time etc

and even appropriate times to sit there whilst kid make mud pies and you read a book whilst they get enournously filthy and make huge mess.

so what - they got dirty

playing in the rain - this always gets me - so long as its not freezing and the kid is appropriatley attired - why keep them in? are they going to melt or something. - get them wellies on and let them out in the garden.

if a ki doesn't eat a meal - fine. ut on't bitch about it and moan and moan at the kid and at the other adult and other kids at the table. leave the kid to not eat - but the kid can't leave the table to do something more fun- this is inappropriate.

don't then feed the kid a packet of organic carrots ( cadbury buttons) and whinge the kid aint hungry.

there is a middle ground.

like with the bath. even if the kid didn't come up to bath time - he woudl be v. jealous at laughs and giggles from other siblings - but even if there weren't other siblings - you had had the shittest day and couldnt take one more confrontation - so what if the kid goes without bathtime now and again?

I will definitely look for this book in library or maybe buy it if not too expensive but in your opinion, using this approach, what should I do different to what I am doing (break up dispute and send DS1 away to calm down, then discuss why he is so angry- he always says because DS2 winds him up so much but IMO DS2 is not doing it intentionally).

DP has been home with boys this week while I am at work and has been punishing and it is SO not working. He has been telling DS1 he doesn't want to be near him because he is too naughty and pushing him away when DS1 goes to apologise after calming down and DS1 feels really rejected. I have noticed that because I am not really punishing just doing time out to calm down DS1 is really contrite after tantrum and also much less confrontational with me than DP. However my approach isn't reducing the frequency of the tantrums so DP would say that it wasn't working!

Custardo, my ds suggested no bath! He said he had had a bath. Yes, but that was 2 days ago, i.e. he was pretty mucky by now....

I agree with you over the dirty/wet thing. We are staying with the gps just now and my mum is a real perfectionist. This morning I was playing mind games with her over this - dd2(2) had managed to put on her own trousers without even being asked, I refrained from praising this but grandma had a get in a "good girl!". Problem was (for her) said trousers were on backwards. Not sure what I would have done normally (they did look really silly with the big bum bit sticking out the front) but I just left her, and you could see my mum itching to grab dd and turn her around the right way. So when that's the way I was brought up it's quite a big deal for me to let things go!

Cluttered, the book would say that by sending your ds1 away, he feels you are withholding love. Even though you don't feel you are doing that, he may perceive it that way. It suggests asking the older child if they want to go to their room to get away on their own for a bit, then go and talk to them. This makes them feel they have more control and you are working with them rather than just telling them what to do. Try it and see what happens.

Also you could ask your ds what he feels could make the situation better, e.g. having some time away from his brother, whatever.

I agree with the book when he says that punishments escalate - the child is so angry at being sent away that they wreck their room, get another punishment for this etc etc.

Thanks KTNoo, I will try this tomorrow and see if it helps. I know DS1 feels DP is witholding love because he has rung me in tears at work saying DP doesn't love him any more and I can't get DP to distinguish between his behaviour and him and say yes, DS1, I will always love you I just have a problem with your behaviour.

Actually I think the root of the problem is that DS1 is jealous and resents DS2, always has since he was born. DS2 does get away with a lot because he is really charming, if he does something naughty he apologises and puts on a charm offensive whereas DS1 gets defensive and doesn't apologise, rubs DP up the wrong way. So really DS1's behaviour may improve if he is made to feel special but it will be hard to get that past DP as he will feel that is rewarding bad behaviour. But I am definitely going to try. To date the boys have been sharing a room and DS1 really wants his own room so DS2 can't touch his things. We do have the space if we re-organise but DP says not until DS1's behaviour improves.

It's so difficult when you don't agree on your parenting approach and DP feels I should back him up in whatever he does to present a united front whereas I refuse to if we haven't agreed it beforehand and I think it's damaging to DC. I can really understand my Mum now when she says that the number one argument between her and my Dad was over parenting!

I have found the book helps things run more smoothly in this house.

KTNoo, deadline days are harder and it doesn't always run smoothly. But working another 10 mins into my schedule so that I can take the time to really listen to them has helped.

Cluttered, can you try going up to your DS1's bedroom with him? (Depends on how old your DS2 is and how he reacts to his brother's tantrum).
By sitting with DS1 for a few mins while he calms down you would not be punishing him for his loss of control and demonstrating that you love him regardless. Obviously you still need to have the chat about handling his rage. Also you could see if your DS has any ideas to prevent the issue arising again. Eg in this case, move the plant to somewhere where his brother can't reach it or put big labels on the pot so that DS2 can recognise which one is his.

I had 'tantrums' until quite late (I remember being over 7) and it used to make me even crosser when I was sent to my room. It would have made such a difference if someone had cared why I was upset.

Agree with Custardo. I've got lots of chldren, so I let a lot of stuff go. If it's not dangerous my DC's can generally get away with things like taking their pillows outside. It isn't going to kill anyone, and they're having fun.

On the other hand, they aren't going to take the pee out of me. So if it's important, (like that child who kept shutting his mum out of the park when she wanted to go home) I'd have just tucked him under one arm, tickled him ( whilst telling him that it is time to go) and taken him to the car.

"Obviously you stop them hitting in that instance and talk to them about why we don't hit, the effect on the other person."

But that doesn't work! Honestly, I've tried. What a hoot. Does Alfie Kohn only have DD's or something?

Only saying that because I have 3 DSs and one DD, and DD is the only one with inherent self-discipline. I can't see that Alfie Kohn says anything constructive at all about any type of discipline. He seems to think that by explaining everything you will instill self-discipline, it doesn't work like that in real life with all DC.

Moreover, there are times when DC won't take "You worked hard on that!" as an asnwer, when they asked "But do YOU like it, mum?" They can tell you're trying to fob them off, you have to at least come up with "I liked how hard you worked on it", and even then I can tell they're unhappy, presuming I must really hate their art-work but won't say as much.

I say whether I like other things, ice cream or buildings or curtains, so why won't I say if I like their efforts...?

lljkk I have two DDs - and the older one (7) is a terror. None of the explanations, talking about feelings or anything else has so far stopped her hitting, pushing, grabbing and being rude. So I don't think it's about gender. My 2nd DD is naturally more polite - has found it much easier to learn to say please and thank you than DD1.

And I was following Continuum Concept principles with DD1 especially since she was born, knew that I was the one who should be in control (and was) and should have given her oodles of self-confidence by baby-wearing and co-sleeping so am rather that she seems so insecure and angry now.

Blessthismess, have you read the CC link below which I put up. To me the CC is not about explanations, talking about feelings, etc. I don't have a 7yo however, I teach teens and I know that explanations, talking about feeling etc is not the way to go. That sort of thing means teachers get walked over.

I am sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with your dd.

I think I must have read a different version of this book than some people on here.

As I read it, the important thing is to consider the child's viewpoint and wishes as much as your own. Explain the reasons fo things not just wade in with 'because I said so'.
However, AK doesn't say that a parent's needs are any less important than the child's.
Nowhere have I read that there shouldn't be any boundaries. Just that star charts and rewards etc are not as useful as letting a child know the reasoning behind a request to do something. Obviously after all other avenues have been exhausted, if something has to be done then it has to be done. BUT the child's upset about it can still be acknowledged and an explanation of why they couldn't have their own way at that time given.

AK also doesn't say that you can't say that a drawing is nice just that you shouldn't be too quick to say 'oh that's nice' without much interest or over the top praise. It's okay to say something is good or nice if you really mean it but try to encourage self-assessment and non-reliance on external praise as a measure of how good a child thinks they are (if that makes sense) so ask them whether they think it's good rather than tell them it is. Ask them about the bits they like best, agree or disagree. Ask whether they would do it the same if they did it again, would they do something different or do they think it's perfect. That type of thing.

I have 9 children and try to keep the UP approach in mind as much as I can. And it does work and lead to much better family life. I'm only human so have my moments as much as anyone else but as with most things the more you do it the easier it becomes.
With my older children I tried to consider them but was influenced by the prevailing idea of children are children and should do as they are told. There was more conflict with my older children when they were young than there is with my younger children now.
However, the older ones have benefitted as they have got older and it has nipped a lot of teenage traumas in the bud by them feeling like they are being listened to.

I could go on but it's getting more and more of a ramble and I've got things to do

"AK also doesn't say that you can't say that a drawing is nice just that you shouldn't be too quick to say 'oh that's nice' without much interest or over the top praise. It's okay to say something is good or nice if you really mean it but try to encourage self-assessment and non-reliance on external praise as a measure of how good a child thinks they are (if that makes sense) so ask them whether they think it's good rather than tell them it is. Ask them about the bits they like best, agree or disagree. Ask whether they would do it the same if they did it again, would they do something different or do they think it's perfect. That type of thing."

This pretty well summarises the trend in education these days which goes by the odd name of 'assessment for learning'. It is to develop independence in children. Too often, children come from KS2 and are totally dependent on the teachers to make the simplest decision for them or need outside appraisal to feel like they have accomplished something. I agree that while praise is good, praise for doing what is expected of them (so star charts etc.) is not a valuable learning tool.

NINE children, Juuule?

Well, I take my hat off to you. Makes my 6 look quite paltry (but mine are nasty, horrible bunch and probably as much work as nine children. Who says us mothers are competitive? )

That was a joke. I KNOW 6 is not the same as 9. Not by a darn long shot. But you sound like a nice mummy, so I expect you handle it well.

I think I go over the top in my praise of DS, firstly because it is my instinct to be delighted in every little achievement of his (which I don't think is something to be quashed or it wouldn't be such a strong instinct in parents). Secondly, my own experience of having a mother who had the attitude that praise is not a good thing (I remember her telling a friend when I was about 5 that she read somewhere that you should never praise but always ask how the thing could have been improved etc - whilst I was painting a picture - and thinking to myself that it would be nice to just get praised sometimes and the improvement was my own business!). It led to me feeling like nothing was ever good enough.