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Son signed up for Army training without telling us

252 replies

anotherglass · Today 07:44

My 20-year-old son, who is at university studying engineering, has signed up for University Officer Training. He has signed a contract and undergone a medical. We only found out last night.
He is a young man who loves Leonard Cohen, plays the guitar and enjoys building electrical systems. Now he’ll be learning parachuting, marksmanship and how to shoot at targets.
I understand the appeal. Around £50 a week, exciting training, new friendships, adventure, mountaineering, climbing and paid overseas trips. For a young person at university, it must sound like an extraordinary opportunity.
At present, these reservists cannot be deployed. But in the current climate, I am deeply uneasy about how secure that assurance really is, and how quickly this position could change.
I haven’t yet managed to speak to him properly about it. But I am deeply troubled that the possibility of a change in status, including being redesignated and potentially becoming deployable, does not appear to have been made sufficiently clear at the outset.
A quick search online suggests that there is already discussion within parts of the military about getting a greater return on the investment in training university officers by making them deployable. If that is a possibility, surely young people need to understand it before they sign a contract — not simply be told about it if the rules change later.
This is what troubles me most. A package of pay, training, adventure and belonging can be enormously attractive to a 20-year-old. But the potential obligations and risks deserve equal prominence.
I know my son is an adult, and I respect his right to make his own decisions. But I am his mum, and the thought that he could one day be called upon to serve in a conflict — when that possibility is not something we had understood to be part of the deal — is genuinely frightening. Anyone else in the same position? Any thoughts on how to navigate this with son?

OP posts:
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Boreded · Today 09:09
  1. he is 20 so he doesn’t need to consult with you
  2. maybe he didn’t tell you because of this reaction
  3. he made himself so much more employable as many large companies have policies that assist those who have been in the armed forces to get fast tracked into roles
  4. do you genuinely actually believe we will be in a situation where we have to send all of our soldiers off to war and then call on our reserves to also…not going to happen
CaptainMyCaptain · Today 09:09

VanCleefArpels · Today 08:58

@anotherglass but I bet you’d want to be defended by “somebody’s” son in the event of war wouldn’t you. What makes your son so special as to be exempt from that? If everyone had your view we’d have no armed forces. Is that what you really want?

This.

MyDenimShark · Today 09:09

Do you honestly think they sign them up without a conversation about this first? Of course they don’t I had a few frank conversations before signing up, I also didn’t tell my parents until I had too as I was only 16. Everyone is taught battle skills, firearms etc, did I ever use them in a war situation, no! It depends very much on your role. I served in Kosovo, NI etc and still wasn’t in that position. Nobody would relish the thought of their child going to war, the chances of him going are almost zero. I’m a reservist and still wouldn’t ever expect to be called up. He’s an adult, you’re being ridiculous.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Bedlingtonwarrior · Today 09:10

Not much point in being worried about deployment.
Govt. are making noises that EVERYONE could be conscripted in case of war

anotherglass · Today 09:11

Tomikka · Today 09:06

That law has already been put into place,
and takes into effect next year

www.gov.uk/government/news/major-boost-to-pool-of-skilled-former-military-personnel-called-upon-in-crises-as-uk-strengthen-preparedness

It means that the Reservists today working up to 55 will be able to do so to 65
I work with a number of them now in Army HQ as FTRS full
time reserve service. They are ex services who
come back into roles that they can remain in for longer than a 2 year posting bringing military experience and the “authority” of wearing a uniform vs a civil servant

They could provide a military role, and the extra 10 years retains the VFM and skills from their specialism, particularly cyber, intelligence etc
I work with engineers, one of whom isn’t using his core military experience but as a civil engineer

Thanks. What does this mean for University Officer Training cadets?

OP posts:
notnorman · Today 09:12

Isn’t it just like army cadets but the university version? That’s the impression I got from my OTC friends at uni

Pinklightning · Today 09:13

princecharlie · Today 08:47

What exactly are you looking to ‘navigate’ with him? He has signed up, so say ‘well done’ don’t be trying to explain the risks to him as if he is a 5 year old. Keep your fears to yourself, and let him go live his life, his way.

Tell him you are happy for him and wish him the best.

Oh, what’s the relevance of Leonard Cohen?

Edited

Leonard Cohen=he’s a sensitive soul and not suited to the roughness of the military. That’s my take anyway.

anotherglass · Today 09:13

notnorman · Today 09:12

Isn’t it just like army cadets but the university version? That’s the impression I got from my OTC friends at uni

He signed a contract and had a medical. It's not quite the same. Wasn't discussed with family.

OP posts:
Uricon2 · Today 09:14

At 19 my great uncle was back from the Western Front with a high ranking gallantry decoration. He'd joined up at 15. My American cousin forged his fathers signature to join up for WW2 underage, got a Silver Star.

They would both have acknowledged that they were among the lucky ones and neither were unscathed, but young people signing up on the quiet and during actual wars is far from unknown. Neither of my relatives had the benefit of being university educated full adults when they did it.

He has to forge his own path OP and it's pretty obvious from your posts why he didn't tell you. You're worried, understandable, you don't like it, fine but it is his life and his decision.

OneLemonLion · Today 09:14

OP totally understand your concern and agree the army is very predatory in its recruitment tactics. Even more so at secondary schools in deprived areas getting children to sign up for the actual army.

Can you have a look at what was signed? There may be a cooling off period, if so you could engage with your son before it expires to check he has considered all possibilities.

I may be wrong but would be surprised if people could be made retrospectively deployable just by signing up for this. I know someone who did the actual army training at a similar age - for the experience- and was still able to choose to leave before he graduated or whatever they call it, so was never at risk of being deployed (to my understanding).

Poshjock · Today 09:15

IN SUMMARY UP FRONT: There is a very wide and varied range of Reserve commitments, each with their own very specific rules for mobilisation and deployment. These are protected in Law and enacted by Parliament. UOTC mobilisation would have to pass through parliament before it could occur and would likely only be part of mass mobilisation of civilians. Any change to UOTC status would also have to be passed through parliament and would not be retrospectively applied to current serving members.

The most basic point here is that your son has not joined the Army. He has joined the UOTC which is an Army sponsored training scheme for civilians. You correctly point out the UOTC cannot be deployed and then conflate a theoretical change in status which has not occurred, with no understanding of the process that would be involved in any "change of status" to "potentially become deployable". You also state that he has an "assurance" of no deployability. Let me correct you on that. It is not an "assurance", it is Law.

The status of the UOTC is set down in the Armed Forces Act and any change to it would require a change to the law which will have to come direct from Parliament. You can go onto the UK Parliament webpage and have a read through all the Statutory Instruments that cover the exacting detail of how the different types of military reserves can be deployed. There is quite a lot to it and reservists cannot be deployed at the whim of the Army or any other branch or the Armed Forces. There are many types of reserves and their deployment commitment and the actions required to enact it are very varied and unique to the particular type of commitment that they are on.

For example, I currently work for MOD as a civilian, but I have a skill set that may have a particular use in active service, so I have a reserve commitment that I receive a small retainer on my salary for. This status can only be enacted by Parliament and the MOD would have to present their case for debate. When I started my MOD contract this was made very clear and I had to sign a document to state that I understood this commitment. I work alongside people that have been with my department for some years, before the reserve requirement was put in place. If the reserve status was activated, they would not be deployed as they are on a different contract to me.

Now I am not an expert on UOTC, however, I have spent a good bit of time digging in the Armed Forces act specifically on Reserve commitment. It is my understanding that UOTC are a similar "level" of reservist to me and that any change to UOTC reserve level would have to go through full Parliamentary debate and would not be retrospectively applied to current serving members.

anotherglass · Today 09:16

MyDenimShark · Today 09:09

Do you honestly think they sign them up without a conversation about this first? Of course they don’t I had a few frank conversations before signing up, I also didn’t tell my parents until I had too as I was only 16. Everyone is taught battle skills, firearms etc, did I ever use them in a war situation, no! It depends very much on your role. I served in Kosovo, NI etc and still wasn’t in that position. Nobody would relish the thought of their child going to war, the chances of him going are almost zero. I’m a reservist and still wouldn’t ever expect to be called up. He’s an adult, you’re being ridiculous.

FU about being ridiculous. Times have moved on since Kosovo and the UK is moving onto war footing with these changes. I think the chances of being called up have increased significantly. Major boost to pool of skilled former military personnel called upon in crises as UK strengthen preparedness - GOV.UK
I only found out last night that he had signed up and am still in shock/processing. Give me a break.

Major boost to pool of skilled former military personnel called upon in crises as UK strengthen preparedness

The Armed Forces Bill will grow the pool of former Service personnel who Defence could draw on in times of crisis, in a move welcomed by senior military leaders

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-boost-to-pool-of-skilled-former-military-personnel-called-upon-in-crises-as-uk-strengthen-preparedness

OP posts:
Dollymylove · Today 09:18

They expect folk of 65 to fight on the front line? Dont bloody think so!!

AutumnLoverButNotYet · Today 09:19

Tomikka · Today 08:52

The UOTC are cadets
26% of UOTC cadets subsequently go on to Sandhurst with a view to becoming a Regular

There is a Reserve status to the UOTC, its “Group B, non-deployable”

The generally known Reserves are the “Volunteer Reserve”, they are the people who sign up to a night a week, weekends and an annual camp which all lead to their deployable commitment

The next are the “Regular Reserve”, the ex Regulars
who have a commitment and can be called back for deployment
The Regular Reserve have their own categories A & B. Category A is the default, category B is a voluntary extension to remain on the list

The Reserve groups other than Regualat Reserve are:

  • Group A: Deployable Army
  • Group B: Non-Deployable - with no deployable liability (UOTC, NRPS non regular permanent staff in Reserve Centres) etc. (UOTC cadets cannot be taken out of their education)
  • Group C: Sponsored Reservists, such as contracted vehicle mechanics - highly likely to deploy in support of operations
  • Group D: Specialist Reservists - doctors, cyber etc - likely to deploy depending on need
  • Group E: Specialized Support & Musicians - a recent category of non combat roles, for PR, ceremonial etc

The links you provided do not state that UOTC have a deployable commitment, where are you getting that from?

@anotherglass

I would read this post several times until you understand the process and realize he's not just gonna wake up one morning and find himself deployed.

I understand your initial worry, but I think if you truly understand this post, you can stop worrying.

x

HoraceCope · Today 09:19

are you worried he is depressed op?
hence the Leonard cohen comment?

anotherglass · Today 09:20

Poshjock · Today 09:15

IN SUMMARY UP FRONT: There is a very wide and varied range of Reserve commitments, each with their own very specific rules for mobilisation and deployment. These are protected in Law and enacted by Parliament. UOTC mobilisation would have to pass through parliament before it could occur and would likely only be part of mass mobilisation of civilians. Any change to UOTC status would also have to be passed through parliament and would not be retrospectively applied to current serving members.

The most basic point here is that your son has not joined the Army. He has joined the UOTC which is an Army sponsored training scheme for civilians. You correctly point out the UOTC cannot be deployed and then conflate a theoretical change in status which has not occurred, with no understanding of the process that would be involved in any "change of status" to "potentially become deployable". You also state that he has an "assurance" of no deployability. Let me correct you on that. It is not an "assurance", it is Law.

The status of the UOTC is set down in the Armed Forces Act and any change to it would require a change to the law which will have to come direct from Parliament. You can go onto the UK Parliament webpage and have a read through all the Statutory Instruments that cover the exacting detail of how the different types of military reserves can be deployed. There is quite a lot to it and reservists cannot be deployed at the whim of the Army or any other branch or the Armed Forces. There are many types of reserves and their deployment commitment and the actions required to enact it are very varied and unique to the particular type of commitment that they are on.

For example, I currently work for MOD as a civilian, but I have a skill set that may have a particular use in active service, so I have a reserve commitment that I receive a small retainer on my salary for. This status can only be enacted by Parliament and the MOD would have to present their case for debate. When I started my MOD contract this was made very clear and I had to sign a document to state that I understood this commitment. I work alongside people that have been with my department for some years, before the reserve requirement was put in place. If the reserve status was activated, they would not be deployed as they are on a different contract to me.

Now I am not an expert on UOTC, however, I have spent a good bit of time digging in the Armed Forces act specifically on Reserve commitment. It is my understanding that UOTC are a similar "level" of reservist to me and that any change to UOTC reserve level would have to go through full Parliamentary debate and would not be retrospectively applied to current serving members.

Thank you. This is the kind of information that I needed. Son lives in University town 2 hours away and the first we heard about him signing up was yesterday. Not seen the contract so don't know what he's signed up to exactly.

OP posts:
anotherglass · Today 09:21

MyDenimShark · Today 09:09

Do you honestly think they sign them up without a conversation about this first? Of course they don’t I had a few frank conversations before signing up, I also didn’t tell my parents until I had too as I was only 16. Everyone is taught battle skills, firearms etc, did I ever use them in a war situation, no! It depends very much on your role. I served in Kosovo, NI etc and still wasn’t in that position. Nobody would relish the thought of their child going to war, the chances of him going are almost zero. I’m a reservist and still wouldn’t ever expect to be called up. He’s an adult, you’re being ridiculous.

I don't know as haven't seen the contract that he signed up to. The marketing material doesn't paint a balanced picture in my view, of potential obligations.

OP posts:
NorWouldTilly · Today 09:24

anotherglass · Today 09:20

Thank you. This is the kind of information that I needed. Son lives in University town 2 hours away and the first we heard about him signing up was yesterday. Not seen the contract so don't know what he's signed up to exactly.

You haven’t seen the contract he signed, but you’re rallying MN for a march on Parliament?

Bloody hell …

anotherglass · Today 09:24

Boreded · Today 09:09

  1. he is 20 so he doesn’t need to consult with you
  2. maybe he didn’t tell you because of this reaction
  3. he made himself so much more employable as many large companies have policies that assist those who have been in the armed forces to get fast tracked into roles
  4. do you genuinely actually believe we will be in a situation where we have to send all of our soldiers off to war and then call on our reserves to also…not going to happen
  1. I don't expect him to consult us on everything but as this is different from the other job he applied for at KFC
  2. Possibly but he could be deployed and Wes Streeting has said prepare for war in 1000 days. I don't think my reaction is unusual.
  3. Potentially but at significant stress and worry for the family that he could get called up or that the commitment could change
  4. We are being prepared for war. One day after finding out he has signed up to this training I am naturally processing the possibilities and at the worried stage.
OP posts:
BirdLandedonmyHead · Today 09:25

Do you understand that OTC cadets can walk away at any time. Literally return their kit, and leave. Ir not even return stuff, just stop turning up.

anotherglass · Today 09:26

NorWouldTilly · Today 09:24

You haven’t seen the contract he signed, but you’re rallying MN for a march on Parliament?

Bloody hell …

Where did I call for a march on parliament? Did you read the promotional website? Am genuinely interested in views as to me it looks too glossy and unbalanced. Anyone willing to engage with this? I'm concerned about young adults getting suckered into commitments that they don't fully appreciate or understand.

OP posts:
anotherglass · Today 09:27

BirdLandedonmyHead · Today 09:25

Do you understand that OTC cadets can walk away at any time. Literally return their kit, and leave. Ir not even return stuff, just stop turning up.

I haven't seen his contract so I don't know what he's signed up to. If anyone has a contract to share please post.

OP posts:
Mischance · Today 09:28

I fully understand your concerns and as a mother i would share them.

I am interested in this: I very much doubt that he fully understands what he has got himself into and as his mum this is hugely upsetting.

Do you have some particular reason to think that he does not fully understand what he has got himself into; or do you feel that most 20 years olds are in that category?

anotherglass · Today 09:29

AutumnLoverButNotYet · Today 09:19

@anotherglass

I would read this post several times until you understand the process and realize he's not just gonna wake up one morning and find himself deployed.

I understand your initial worry, but I think if you truly understand this post, you can stop worrying.

x

Thank you. In this climate, the worry will always be there that we will move to a situation where he does become deployable. Europe has already moved towards conscription for young people, and in German proposed to restrict overseas travel for youths. This has created a whole new layer of worry that I didn't have last week.

OP posts:
anyolddinosaur · Today 09:30

Of course you are worried but he's an adult and he's made a decision. In the event of war he'd be called up pretty soon anyway and maybe not get as good a training in how to protect himself. He will gain skills making him more employable.

Seems like you need help with your anxiety and in recognising that he is no longer a child and can make decisions you disagree with.