Vaccines/medicines and alternative approaches such as herbal

[Winnie98]

Looking for advice/experiences from parents who haven’t vaccinated

Hi, I’m hoping to get some advice and hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate their children, or have delayed some vaccinations.

I know vaccines are one of those subjects that can get very heated on here, and I’m really not looking for a vaccine vs anti-vaccine argument or for anyone to tell me I’m a terrible parent 😂. I completely respect that people make different choices for their children. Please just be kind.

My DC is 1 and has had their previous vaccinations, but I’m now starting to feel quite hesitant about going ahead with the next ones. I’m feeling a bit conflicted and I’m trying to get as much information as I can before making any decisions.

I think some of this probably comes from my own experiences with vaccines. Growing up, I had some vaccinations delayed because my parents weren’t sure about some of the newer ones that were being introduced at the time. As an adult I’ve also chosen not to have the Covid or flu vaccines. When I’m ill myself I’m quick to grab natural remedies like Ginger drink , tumeric ect ect to avoid taking medication where it can be avoided. Obviously those were my own decisions and I know everyone’s circumstances are different, but I think those experiences have probably contributed to how I’m feeling now that I’m having to make these decisions for my own child.

What I’m actually hoping for is to hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate and how to make this decision with the right information in relation to life without vaccines.
As well as people who try and avoid the likes of calpol and lemsips and paracetamols ect and focus more on herbal remedies.

• Where have you got your information from?
• How have you gone about understanding the risks of the illnesses themselves?
• If your child has become ill with something they weren’t vaccinated against, what was your experience and what did you do?
• Are there particular symptoms/signs you’d look out for that would mean getting medical help?
• where can I learn about natural remedies for illnesses for children

I’d also be interested to hear if anyone has spoken to their GP/health visitor or another healthcare professional about not vaccinating and whether you found that useful or felt judged.

I’m genuinely just trying to educate myself and work out what I’m comfortable with, rather than looking for people to agree with me. I’d really appreciate hearing people’s experiences, particularly from those who have been through the same thought process.

Thanks 😊

If you choose not to vaccinate there's a whole internet full of weirdo conspiracy theorists who will tell you you're doing the right thing.
MN otoh is mostly sane sensible parents who want the best for their children and protect them any way possible.

I'm not sure you're getting the responses that you asked for - originally I wasn't going to comment but I feel like people are jumping down your throat and that's not going to help you. For transparency - my children have received all their routine childhood vaccinations and I am a children's nurse. I think it is responsible parenting to think about anything you are giving your own children and consider what is right for your family so no judgement for wanting more information. The growing problem with vaccines specifically is all of the complete propaganda and misinformation that has spread like wildfire in the media, especially social media. Unfortunately it has wrongly placed doubt in the minds of many parents who would have otherwise vaccinated their children. Years of research and trials have gone into creating the current vaccine schedule and it is routinely reassessed to consider efficacy and cost-benefit. As an example teenagers no longer receive routine vaccination for TB because vaccines are now targets to more at risk groups. If it was true that vaccines are all about 'big pharma' and government control they wouldn't REMOVE safe vaccines from use. Personally I chose not to vaccinate my children against covid when it was offered because by then they had already had covid and been fine. I had the vaccines myself mandated due to working for the NHS and they made me feel dreadful (way worse than actual covid) although I would have them again to protect my vulnerable patients. There are small measured risks to vaccinating but these are low and are grossly outweighed by the benefits. People talk a lot about measles which is a truly awful disease but it's also several types of meningitis that they get protection against. In my 20yr career I have seen many children suffer serious complications from meningitis including deaths. If you had witnessed it with your own eyes (which I hope you never have to) you would never ever risk not protecting your own children. Alternative therapies are a great adjunct to medicine but they absolutely cannot prevent or cure serious deadly diseases such as the ones covered by the vaccine schedule. Our privilege as parents now is that most people have not witnessed these diseases first hand and so can turn a blind eye to the destruction they caused in previous generations. I would implore you to look at reliable, scientific websites and information and NOT social media. Even people who sound knowledgeable on SM are wrong. In some areas they also now offer a 'vaccine hesitancy' clinic where you can discuss your concerns with a health professional.

What I will say is that it is highly likely that at some point in the future there will be more significant outbreaks of diseases in children that we were close to eradicating and if your child/children are affected you need to consider how that might make you feel and whether if you would then consider vaccinating them (because the threat would feel more tangible). If you think you would feel guilty and consider vaccination at that point then just get it done now. If you choose not to, as is your perogative then be sure to keep a close eye on your children when they become unwell and think about early antibiotics when they become unwell. There have also been outbreaks of meningitis in university age young people so also be sure to explain to your children that they are not vaccinated and allow them to make their own informed choices when the time comes about whether they protect themselves as they get older.

Please use vaccines. Louis Pasteur would spin in his grave if he could read some of the garbage today.
There are children dying of measles in this day and age because some ignorant loon has put it about that the vaccine is dangerous. But is not qualified and knows absolutely nothing in reality.
Unbelievable really.

@Winnie98 you are being really disingenuous - there is simply no need to debate the validity of the routine childhood vaccines. I’m NOT talking about ones like flu where the motivation of extending the childhood programme is not only about the child themselves, it’s about the wider vulnerable population eg. Pregnant women, those under 6 mths, those with existing conditions, the disabled and elderly who don’t respond as well to vaccines or who actually don’t uptake the vaccine themselves.A fairly high percentage of health professionals don’t take up the flu vaccine themselves even when it’s free to do so whereas I imagine the percentage of health professionals who haven't given routine childhood vaccines to their own children is pretty tiny. COVID sadly has meant a real breakdown in trust between parents and the heath service and some parents can no longer tell the difference between non essential and essential vaccines.

What are the risks associated with vaccinations that you are concerned about?

Then you may take the decision to risk your child not having the vaccine. Personally I never want to be in the position of regretting such a decision later.

Like a PP, I've sat by the bed of a 5 week old baby with serious RSV, on oxygen and requiring tube feeding so that her little stomach wasn't too full to prevent her lungs from breathing as much as she was able. Other than this there was no treatment, no medicine herbal or otherwise that could help. She recovered enough to go home after a week in hospital but there was many a time we thought she would die.
A vaccination wasn't available when she was born, it is now and I'm so glad others may not have to go through what she did.
I find it a bit odd that your child had the baby vaccinations , and maybe you had the ones now given in pregnancy, yet you're hesitant about the ones due now. Can you explain why your attitude has changed?

Got the information from Science, and the fact that I have never met someone with polio. My mum’s friend is also deaf from measles (the vaccination hadn’t been invented when she was a child).

The End.

If someone responds to you @Winnie98 and says, “I chose not to vaccinate my child and they still haven’t died of Measles”, will that help with your decision?

The problem with the world that is anti vaccination is that it’s built on unscientific guesswork and ignores the vast body of evidence that shows the benefits far far outweigh the risks. I think you are RIGHT to ask questions but in doing so you have to be aware of your own bias, if you’re looking to hear from others who haven’t vaccinated then you’re already asking the wrong question. You will simply get scare stories about vaccines and anecdotes about the absence of illness despite not vaccinating. You will also get the message that you’re a better parent if you don’t vaccinate. Will you be able to set aside the emotional appeal and focus on the hard data in favour of vaccination?

The only way to understand the risk versus the benefits is to go to the scientific evidence or to someone who understands the evidence and can explain it to you. That evidence, from many studies of vast numbers of children over many years will tell you that vaccination is the wisest decision you can make for your children.

Because the evidence in favour of vaccine is so strong people feel strongly about the subject. Asking people to “be kind” has become shorthand for don’t disagree or dispute me or criticise me. It is not unkind to point out the potential flaws in your research towards your understandable wish to know more about vaccination.

The short answer is vaccinate your children.

If your child becomes very sick, you'll want proper medication and if they loose their sight or hearing from measles you'll regret this forever.

My elder sister had TB in the 1940s... I am the youngest born at the tail end of the 1950s... back then there was no children's wards visiting per se, in fact it was actively discouraged. Betty was three and died without her mother from TB, my aunty Betty for whom she was named spent six years in a sanatorium in the US recovering from TB. I still remember the look on my mum's face when she used to mix up our birthdays in June and the memories would flood back

Unfortunately, herbal remedies did not work on these diseases back then or now, however vaccines do.

Well when DS was hospitalised with flu there were 6 other children in at the same time, DS was the only one who had underlying health conditions.

He had had his flu jab that year but sadly it’s not 100% effective, but the senior consultant was sure that having been vaccinated meant he wasn’t hit as badly as he would have been otherwise. He still gets vaccinated at the earliest chance each year.

There is a reason vaccines were invented.
Terrible disease that nobody knew how to cure. And was sometimes rife. And fatal.
The people who invented them risked their own lives testing them on themselves. Louis Pasteur ran a gauntlet of people who ridiculed and ostracised him for his ideas. I am glad he did not give up.

People today do not know their luck. To have so many vaccines that will ward off terrible illnesses.

Too many people on the internet cast doubts in peoples minds about them. But have no knowledge themselves.

If children are not vaccinated the diseases will reappear. And are.

The thing is, that having a different opinion absolutely can make you a bad parent. You could believe it’s fine to run across the road in front of traffic, or live on a diet of sweets or never bother to clean your teeth and all those beliefs put your children at risk and would make you a bad parent. Equally, not believing in vaccinating your children makes you a bad parent.

The thing is you don’t know if they have underlying health issues. I didn’t until I hit early 30s and got a shock diagnosis of no white blood cells with a very panicked doctor on the phone sending me straight to haematology
that came out of nowhere one day. Your child could be fine one day and not the next

Let's have a look at the Penn and Teller clip...

I want to understand the illnesses, the benefits and risks of vaccination, the possible side effects, and what the evidence actually says before I decide what I’m comfortable with.

Go and do a medical degree then. And specialise in medical research. After about 10 or 15 years you'll have the right level of knowledge.

Or, you could just do what the rest of us do and take advice from the experts who have done all the training and lab work rather than trying to figure it out ourselves.

Like all medications, vaccines carry risk. No healthcare, public health professional, or scientist will tell you that they are 100% safe. Nothing in life is. It's always a balance of risk vs benefit. In the case of the immunisations offered in the standard schedule, the evidence OVERWHELMINGLY supports benefits vs risks in the vast majority of the population. Vaccination saves lives and prevents disabilities every day. Choosing not to access free, safe and effective public health initiatives like childhood vaccines is a luxury choice many in the world do not have.

I gave an honest account as a now adult unvaccinated child. I'm in my 40s and I am worse off now than my peers are because i was unvaccinated. I have lifelong immune weaknesses from being hit full force with diseases they had a degree of immunity to. I wish my mum had vaccinated me. I wish someone had noticed I had been overlooked and helped me. I would have had a healthier life if I had been vaccinated. My children have all their vaccinations now because I won't subject a child to what I had to go through.

Yes, your job is to make the best medical decision for you child and that means doing everything you can to protect them from harmful diseases. I assume you are vaccinated, so why are you not allowing your children the same protections that you have?

I went on the NHS website and I looked at all the outcomes of each thing my child was supposed to be vaccinated against after my niece had a horrendous reaction to the rotavirus vaccine. I vaccinated my child against everything where the worst possible outcome was death or brain damage. That turned out to be all of them apart from rotavirus. The NHS don’t vaccinate for fun, it is incredibly costly.

Okay, if you're doing your own research, I would suggest starting with the Green Book. Immunisation against infectious disease - GOV.UK

@Winnie98 ok, to answer your question.

I was born just before MMR came onto the schedule. Some people in my year (like me) had the vaccination a bit later and some people didn’t. It wasn’t part of our routine jabs.

My MiL is very anti medication unless you need it. Much prefers various herbal remedies. My husband didn’t get the MMR vaccine (again, we are too old for it to have been routine)

when we got to uni mumps went round like wildfire. Most of the females were ill for 2 weeks. Friends of mine missed graduation balls and ceremonies. Every male i knew who got it (including DH) were hospitalised. He has never been as sick before or since. It spread and impacted his fertility.

Like I said, his mum is a bit anti medication, but she takes her flu jab every year. Having known people who died of flu and having an asthmatic husband, she won’t take that risk.

OP, the NHS recommends these vaccines because these illness are serious.

What’s wrong with Calpol? Genuine question - I mean, I use it if my kids are in pain or feverish and fretful, but don’t exactly use it as a crutch.

Re vaccines: for me, it comes down to the really simple fact that vaccine complications DO happen but are proportionally extremely, almost vanishingly rare. On the other hand, catching a disease like measles puts children at a ridiculously high risk of being hospitalised. I just did a very cursory google and it says that no causal links have ever been made between the MMR vaccine and death. On the other hand, the chance of dying from measles is between 1 and 3 in a thousand. Death from vaccines: so rare as to be unrecorded; death from measles: heartbreakingly chronicled throughout the ages.

I just don’t find it a hard choice to make.

That’s so bloody sad.

It is. It felt so tragic. It really affected a lot of people in the community. Such a lovely child.