Vaccines/medicines and alternative approaches such as herbal

[Winnie98]

Looking for advice/experiences from parents who haven’t vaccinated

Hi, I’m hoping to get some advice and hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate their children, or have delayed some vaccinations.

I know vaccines are one of those subjects that can get very heated on here, and I’m really not looking for a vaccine vs anti-vaccine argument or for anyone to tell me I’m a terrible parent 😂. I completely respect that people make different choices for their children. Please just be kind.

My DC is 1 and has had their previous vaccinations, but I’m now starting to feel quite hesitant about going ahead with the next ones. I’m feeling a bit conflicted and I’m trying to get as much information as I can before making any decisions.

I think some of this probably comes from my own experiences with vaccines. Growing up, I had some vaccinations delayed because my parents weren’t sure about some of the newer ones that were being introduced at the time. As an adult I’ve also chosen not to have the Covid or flu vaccines. When I’m ill myself I’m quick to grab natural remedies like Ginger drink , tumeric ect ect to avoid taking medication where it can be avoided. Obviously those were my own decisions and I know everyone’s circumstances are different, but I think those experiences have probably contributed to how I’m feeling now that I’m having to make these decisions for my own child.

What I’m actually hoping for is to hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate and how to make this decision with the right information in relation to life without vaccines.
As well as people who try and avoid the likes of calpol and lemsips and paracetamols ect and focus more on herbal remedies.

• Where have you got your information from?
• How have you gone about understanding the risks of the illnesses themselves?
• If your child has become ill with something they weren’t vaccinated against, what was your experience and what did you do?
• Are there particular symptoms/signs you’d look out for that would mean getting medical help?
• where can I learn about natural remedies for illnesses for children

I’d also be interested to hear if anyone has spoken to their GP/health visitor or another healthcare professional about not vaccinating and whether you found that useful or felt judged.

I’m genuinely just trying to educate myself and work out what I’m comfortable with, rather than looking for people to agree with me. I’d really appreciate hearing people’s experiences, particularly from those who have been through the same thought process.

Thanks 😊

My DH cousin works for GKS in switzerland and big Pharma. So we speak on this topic.

So weird how many of the 'I'm not an anti-vaxxer' anti-vaxxers have a friend or distant relative who works 'big pharma' but is a whisteblower in private. But since GKS (as far as I can tell) is the Global Korea Scholarship programme, perhaps the poster's husband's (nonexistent) cousin isn't really in the industry at all?

Exactly. As I've said up-post, I'm not anti-vax at all. I just don't think the benefits of the flu jab warrant the push behind it, and that makes me question it. Each to their own!

Yes, I've had flu and I've had Covid. Both absolutely wiped me out, and Covid wiped my kids out too. Proper flu isn't just feeling a bit rough for a few days. Most people walking around saying they've got flu are talking shit. When you've genuinely got it, you're bed bound!.
My point is that the vaccine doesn't stop you getting flu. You can still catch it and you can still get it badly. I've got family/friends/work collegues who've had the jab and still been really ill with it, I've seen it with my own eyes
So why would me or my kids have it? That's the bit I can't get my head around. If someone wants it, fair enough, that's their choice. But for us, I just don't see enough benefit to make it worth it!

This.

Just for information, the Suzanne Humphries cited as an expert on the subject of vaccines downthread is a discredited antivaxxer who peddles misinformation widely in books and online. Stephen Novella is clear and invormative about her.

I totally believe in informed consent, so i am not telling you to get these vaccines I am explaining why evidence suggests they are a good idea.
Covid & flu vaccines reduce the chance you will get the disease and reduce the likely severity of the disease if you get it. They dont eliminate risks they markedly reduce them.
The reduced risks of disease harms after having the vaccine are why they are recommended.

Some people smoke & are fine. Others get cancer without smoking. However, on balance you are less likely to get cancer if you dont smoke. The same principles apply to vaccines like flu. Having it reduces the risk of flu - it doesnt eliminate it.

They always are. It's a golden era for the horseshit peddlers. AI regurgitates it as fact and people lap it up.

My decision was made from research all over. Dr Suzanne Humphreys has an amazing book on this that's a good starting place.

@MixedBananas That is a very bad starting place. Suzanne Humphries lacks scientific credibility by mainstream medical professionals. She is a doctor who practiced as a nephrologist until 2011. This does not qualify her as an expert in epidemiology, immunology, or virology.

She has been heavily criticised by medical experts for promoting inaccurate claims about vaccination.

For me, vaccines are something I’m particularly hesitant about because I’m talking about making a medical decision on behalf of a very young child. I want to understand the illnesses, the benefits and risks of vaccination, the possible side effects, and what the evidence actually says before I decide what I’m comfortable with.

If this is true, why in your OP have you specifically asked to hear from people who have decided not to vaccinate?

I mean, vaccines are one of the most incredible developments of the last 100 years or so. They've saved well over a million lives and prevented even more life-long disabilities. We know this. How can that be balanced against the few who decide not to vaccinate but it turns out ok in the end so they post on MN?

You could read Roald Dahl's account of his daughter dying of measles. He wasn't able to vaccinate her because it hadn't been invented yet. https://www.encephalitis.info/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/R-Dahls-letter.pdf

Imagine how he would have felt if it had been invented and he had chosen not to vaccinate?

“The reduced risks of disease harms after having the vaccine are why they are recommended.” I just want to highlight this aspect. One thing that Covid research showed is that so called” natural” immunity from catching the virus lasted longer than the immunity acquired from the jab. So this is part of the reason why , once the majority of the population had either been jabbed or exposed to the virus, COVID jabs have not continued to be available to everyone for free . Those people who are more likely to NOT experience those worst harms are of course likely to catch the virus but they are less likely to catch it again and spread it further over a specific time period. Meanwhile all those people who ARE more likely to experience harm are given the vaccine twice yearly for free so they hopefully don’t catch it or have reduced harms if they do catch it. Free vaccine programmes aren’t always solely about the individual person , it’s about societal health too, so it’s a balance of cost versus effectiveness. Hence why for eg. we have a current programme of free Men B vaccines to 18 year olds/young people starting uni because the recent strains seem more infectious and hence more harm causing (children have always died and been harmed by Men B but the JCVI didn’t consider the cost v.effectiveness ratio high enough until 2015 when they introduced it to the childhood vaccine programme…similarly they are not introducing a catch up programme for all 19 and older teens and twenties , only those attending uni for the first time ) . Do you see the difference? This is obviously in relation to yearly covid/ flu jabs and not the longer lasting essential jabs like MMR.

Michael Moseley did a brilliant series about the search for modern medicines (Pain, Pus and Poison). In episode 2 (Pus) he documents how vaccines were developed and how smallpox was eradicated.

It is an easy watch and very informative

It is still available on iPlayer.

@Winnie98 if you are unsure about vaccines please watch it and educate yourself.

My mum knew someone who chose not to vaccinate their child.

Their child almost died of whooping cough and needed hospitalised. Absolutely no herbal remedy would have helped them. Quite frankly anyone who thinks a herbal remedy is of help against serious diseases such as measles needs their head examined.

Vaccines have been proven to help save lives. There's a reason we don't have high rates of deadly diseases. I can't believe any loving and decent parent (unless there is a VERY good medical reason) would choose to not vaccinate their child, put them at risk of serious illness and instead rely on unproven remedies instead.

Some vaccines are more important for some groups. Im offered the covid vaccine because im immunocompromised. If i get covid the chance it will be serious is greater for me than is typical. Cost efficiency means we target certain groups. The impacts of infection and vaccination on future immunity are not discrete. I have had covid, but vaccination further increases my likely future immune response. Vaccination will reduce future risk of infection & disease severity even in previously infected populations. Healthy individuals for some diseases may think thar the personal risks are negligible so it isnt worth the bother & may not be interested altruistic benefits. I was responding to why someone would choose to have it.

First post nails it AGAIN 👏

@Owlbookend i totally agree, it’s about risk versus harms in that instance and the poster you were responding to is fairly clear that for her and her family , their circumstances do not tip the balance in favour of having the flu vaccine. Likewise for me, I would take every other vaccine going but do not have the flu jab myself and stopped having the COVID jab after 3 times as it triggered negative side effects…but sure as hell when the next pandemic comes , I will take any vaccine going until we know the full consequences. I do seriously worry though that the population as as whole will be far less likely to comply with government advice in the event of a new pandemic. Again my worry is for parents that do not understand the difference between essential and non essential childhood vaccines, promoting yearly jabs for otherwise healthy children is clouding the picture and this is affecting peoples thinking in the way the OP shows.

I'd say not vaccinating your child against serious illness makes your worse than a bad mum. It makes you a terrible parent and borderline abusive to put your child at risk of illness. It isn't the actions of a loving parent.

Yes nothing is risk free, but surely the risk of getting these illnesses is far greater than the tiny risk that comes with the vaccines. I can't believe anyone with a half a brain cell needs that spelled out to them. And I say that as someone who's sibling was hospitalised after the covid vaccine. I'd still always choose to vaccinate my child.

Would you still be thinking you were a loving and good mum if your child was dying in hospital or seriously ill with a illness you could have easily prevented through vaccination?

Yes, if the child is one, then we're talking MMR, not covid/flu jab. There's a reason that parents may start to get antsy about vaccines around MMR time and it's not an evidence-based one.

Anyone else been vaccinated up the wazooo double?
Sounds uncomfortable……

OP you don’t need to know the ins and outs of vaccines, just know that they work and the reason certain diseases aren’t really an issue these days is BECAUSE they work.

I genuinely don’t understand anti vaxxers…

My 3 year old son was fully up to date with his vaccinations until he was diagnosed with leukaemia in May.

The chemotherapy he’s had to undergo has wiped all of that protection so not only is he battling cancer, but he’s fully susceptible to all of the potentially life-changing diseases we’d chosen to protect him from.

There is nothing more terrifying than witnessing your child going through treatment for a potentially fatal disease. I would do anything for him to be back on his feet and well again and as soon as his treatment ends (approx 2 years time), we’ll be starting from scratch with his vaccines. Vaccines are ultimately parental choice, but having a seriously ill child is a pain impossible to describe

My child is offered a flu vaccine. I accept it because it reduces the likelihood she will become ill from flu (she is completely healthy). Other parents dont accept as is their choice. I dont think offering this vaccine muddies the waters or should reduce wider vaccine uptake. Nobody is forced to have it. Im glad i can reduce the chance DD will get ill & have significant time off school.

Have you ever met anyone with Polio? No didn’t think so….

OP, vaccines don't just protect your child. Vaccinating your child helps to protect children like Retiredraver23's son. The fewer cases of measles and other infectious diseases there are, the less likely it is that he will catch one of them when he is less able to fight it.

One thing that makes it easy for the anti vax view is that they have grown up in a world where children didn't routinely die or suffer lifelong consequences from childhood illness.
I was a child in the 1960s. There were children at my school who'd had polio, legs in calipers, and it could have been worse. I had measles aged five which is why I am deaf in one ear and wear hearing aids and I wasn't even sick enough to need hospital.
It's also true that some vaccines allow breakthrough infections but those are much less likely if everyone who can, has had the vaccine. The disease needs hosts to flourish.

There was a severely immunocompromised lad in DDs primary school. The head sent out a couple of letters requesting we all ensured our children were fully vaccinated and to keep them off school if there was a chance they’d been exposed to chickenpox etc. I’m pleased to say that as far as I’m aware there was no dissent about this entirely reasonable and sensible request. I hope you experience similar to keep your child as safe as possible