Vaccines/medicines and alternative approaches such as herbal

[Winnie98]

Looking for advice/experiences from parents who haven’t vaccinated

Hi, I’m hoping to get some advice and hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate their children, or have delayed some vaccinations.

I know vaccines are one of those subjects that can get very heated on here, and I’m really not looking for a vaccine vs anti-vaccine argument or for anyone to tell me I’m a terrible parent 😂. I completely respect that people make different choices for their children. Please just be kind.

My DC is 1 and has had their previous vaccinations, but I’m now starting to feel quite hesitant about going ahead with the next ones. I’m feeling a bit conflicted and I’m trying to get as much information as I can before making any decisions.

I think some of this probably comes from my own experiences with vaccines. Growing up, I had some vaccinations delayed because my parents weren’t sure about some of the newer ones that were being introduced at the time. As an adult I’ve also chosen not to have the Covid or flu vaccines. When I’m ill myself I’m quick to grab natural remedies like Ginger drink , tumeric ect ect to avoid taking medication where it can be avoided. Obviously those were my own decisions and I know everyone’s circumstances are different, but I think those experiences have probably contributed to how I’m feeling now that I’m having to make these decisions for my own child.

What I’m actually hoping for is to hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate and how to make this decision with the right information in relation to life without vaccines.
As well as people who try and avoid the likes of calpol and lemsips and paracetamols ect and focus more on herbal remedies.

• Where have you got your information from?
• How have you gone about understanding the risks of the illnesses themselves?
• If your child has become ill with something they weren’t vaccinated against, what was your experience and what did you do?
• Are there particular symptoms/signs you’d look out for that would mean getting medical help?
• where can I learn about natural remedies for illnesses for children

I’d also be interested to hear if anyone has spoken to their GP/health visitor or another healthcare professional about not vaccinating and whether you found that useful or felt judged.

I’m genuinely just trying to educate myself and work out what I’m comfortable with, rather than looking for people to agree with me. I’d really appreciate hearing people’s experiences, particularly from those who have been through the same thought process.

Thanks 😊

I have taught in a school which had a unit attached for children with severe hearing impairment, some of whom were also visually impaired. Several of these was as a direct result of catching measles when unvaccinated.

But you are a bad parent. You prioritise your right to be stupid over your own child’s life.

It’s flat out negligent parenting.

Please know this, choosing whether or not to have a COVID or flu jab is entirely different to not giving your child one of the essential childhood vaccinations. There’s a whole generation of us who had measles/ mumps as children and have the lifelong impacts to deal with ( I have hearing issues, a family member was hospitalised with encephalitis) never mind those of our parents who had polio etc. nothing wrong with complementary medicine for certain areas of health (I use various remedies and practised complementary medicine myself) , but childhood vaccines aren't one of them! Count yourself lucky to have been born in a time when you are unlikely to lose a child due tochildhood illnesses.

I’ve just looked at ONS stats and 113 under 16s died of flu in England and Wales in the five years from 2019.

It was mentioned as a contributory cause of death in a slightly higher number. So flu was directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of about 250 children just in England and Wales in those years.

Natural remedies won't stop your child getting measles or any of the other diseases we vaccinate against.
If you decide not to vaccinate you have to accept that you are taking a risk for your child.
My brother's eyesight was ruined by measles. He caught it before the vaccination existed.
I worked with someone who had polio as a child again before the vaccine and he was in a wheel chair. My brother in law spent months in hospital as a child because he had TB , again before the vaccine.
I remember my sister fighting for breath when she caught whooping cough as a toddler and the worry on my mum 's face when she thought she was going to die. Again before the vaccine.
I don't understand anyone who refuses to vaccinate vaccines save lives.

Honestly, I’m quite shocked at how nasty some of the replies have been.
I came on here genuinely asking for information and experiences because I’m hesitant and trying to educate myself before making decisions about my child. I didn’t come on here telling everyone else they’re bad parents for vaccinating, yet quite a few people couldn’t resist telling me I’m a bad mum simply because I have questions.
I’m not claiming to be perfect, and I don’t think anyone else here is either.
I’m sure everyone on this thread feeds their children a completely organic, perfectly balanced diet, gives them nothing processed, never gives them sweets or sugar, never buys a McDonald’s, never gives them fizzy drinks, only gives them filtered water, never allows screen time, and avoids every single product or food containing preservatives or additives. I’m sure nobody here smokes, drinks alcohol or does anything else that could potentially carry a risk.
Obviously that’s not reality. We all make choices every day about what risks we’re comfortable with, and none of us are perfect parents.
There are plenty of things that have become completely normal parts of modern life that people have concerns about, and people are allowed to question those things without automatically being labelled a bad parent.
For me, vaccines are something I’m particularly hesitant about because I’m talking about making a medical decision on behalf of a very young child. I want to understand the illnesses, the benefits and risks of vaccination, the possible side effects, and what the evidence actually says before I decide what I’m comfortable with.
That doesn’t mean I think vaccines are poison, that I think I know more than doctors, or that I’m refusing to listen to evidence. Quite the opposite — I’m asking questions because I want to understand it properly.
You don’t have to agree with me. You don’t even have to understand why I feel the way I do. But calling someone a bad mother because they’re asking questions about their child’s healthcare really isn’t helpful.
If you have useful information, evidence or personal experience to share, I’m genuinely happy to hear it. If the only contribution is to insult me, I’m not particularly interested.
No one is perfect. I’m just trying to make what I believe is the best-informed decision I can for my child.

From your OP

What I’m actually hoping for is to hear from people who have chosen not to vaccinate and how to make this decision with the right information in relation to life without vaccines.

So now claiming that you are merely asking questions about the benefits and risks of vaccinations is really rather disingenuous, isn't it?

And how many of them children had underlying health issues? The average healthy child will not die of the flu, unless they have health issues, or are malnourished etc.

But you don’t need to know all of those things. Because years of medical research as done that for you to show that the benefits massively outweigh the tiny risks.

having sat by the ITU bed of a tiny baby critically ill with something that at that point there wasn’t a vaccine available for I know all too well how hard it is to make decisions that impact your child’s health. Think yourself lucky you can make decisions which mean your child is less likely to end up in the position mine was.

There are always some who won't believe in or accept vaccines OP, I already posted that. Maybe you are part of that demographic. I think generally humans are pretty poor at risk assessment. You have posted as if eating food from McDonald's is somehow the same as catching a life threatening illness, for example.
This isnt a question of morality, but it is a question of belief. I doubt that anything anyone could post on here would affect your strongly held beliefs. And I can see that people expressing their beliefs which are the opposite of yours must be quite upsetting, I expect you feel attacked.
I hope your children stay healthy.

I honestly don’t care that people disagree with me. I expected there to be people who completely disagree with what I’m saying, and that’s absolutely fine. What I do have an issue with is being labelled a bad mum, irresponsible or uncaring simply because I’m questioning something and have a different view.
I’m not saying vaccines are bad, and I’m not saying there aren’t benefits to them. Of course there are. I’m saying there are also risks and potential side effects, just like there are with pretty much everything we do, eat or put into our bodies. I don’t think acknowledging that makes someone anti-vaccine or uneducated.
And just to clarify because people seem to have taken my previous examples literally — I am not saying McDonald’s, fizzy drinks, screen time and vaccines are the same thing. Obviously they aren’t.
My point was simply that there are risks involved in so many of the choices we make as parents, and we all decide which risks we’re comfortable with.
The NHS recommends exclusive breastfeeding for around the first six months and continuing alongside solids for two years or beyond. Not everyone does that. Some people choose formula because breastfeeding isn’t for them, for all sorts of reasons. That doesn’t automatically make them bad parents.
During Covid, did every single person follow every rule perfectly? Did everyone always wear a mask, sanitise their hands, avoid public places and never bend a rule? Probably not.
When a child is poorly, does every parent always keep them at home regardless of how mild their symptoms are, even if it means taking another day off work? Again, probably not.
I’m not bringing those things up to say they’re equivalent to vaccines. They’re obviously not. I’m just saying that there are risks and compromises involved in everyday parenting decisions, and none of us are making completely risk-free choices.
So when I say I’m hesitant about vaccines, I’m not saying “vaccines are dangerous and everyone who vaccinates is wrong”. I’m saying I want to understand the benefits, the risks, the illnesses they’re protecting against and the evidence before making decisions for my child.
And I think it’s perfectly possible to acknowledge that vaccines have significant benefits while also acknowledging that they aren’t completely risk-free. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
I’m not asking anyone to agree with me. I’m not even asking anyone to change their own decisions. I just don’t think having a different opinion or asking questions makes someone a bad parent.

My understanding is that childhood flu vaccinations mostly protect other people (kids being germy super spreaders) rather than kids themselves - my DDs get them every year even though they themselves don’t necessarily “need” it.

with is being labelled a bad mum, irresponsible or uncaring simply because I’m questioning something and have a different view.

But it's not just a different point of view or questioning something, and by ignoring centuries of hard evidence of the efficacy of vaccination against life threatening and life changing diseases, you ARE a bad parent.

And you're a bad citizen, in that you are reliant on others vaccinating children so we have "herd immunity" but you're not prepared to do that yourself. It's selfish and ignorant behaviour, frankly.

"Ginger & turmeric" - oh yes, that's going to stop a child being blinded by a bad dose of the measles.

So ask people medically qualified to give you a scientifically valid answer. Not the specific and random group of 'people who have chosen not to vaccinate'. That's not how you get accurate information. If Sue from Buttock, Hampshire chose not to vaccinate because she believes they're made with cat urine, does that really help you? Or if Bob from East Peen, Scotland chooses not to because his great uncles' second cousin's daughter's bff's son's mother-in-law is sure that's what made her nephew autistic. Does that help you?

And the silly comparisons you're making around random, daily parenting choices and lifesaving vaccines in your posts above only go to prove you aren't engaging in the kind of rational thinking you are purporting to.

I can see that OP. But vaccination is one of those binary things. You can vaccinate your children or not, its an either or situation. Of course there are risks to vaccination but they are small compared to the risk of getting the disease. And I think a lot of mums worry about the jabs for their children. But many go ahead despite that risk. As a parent you must weigh those risks and decide yourself.

I think the risk of a vaccine issue is such a small risk as well compared to if they get say measles
to me it doesn’t make sense to not vaccinate if you’re then going to accept all the medication for treating the illness

I haven’t had my MMR. I was allergic to egg and can’t have it now as immunocompromised and it’s scary that people aren’t vaccinating

I'll say it with my full chest:

Parents who don't vaccinate (eligible) children are neglectful parents.

You're also socially irresponsible and can potentially harm vulnerable people (including children who can't be vaccinated because they had organ transplants or are allergic and depend on herd immunity).

There are plenty of educated experienced people who can provide you with excellent advice about vaccines. You can look at their qualifications and backgrounds. Why are you coming on here asking for advice from people you don’t know and have no way of assessing? There are published statistics about the side effects of vaccines-yes, of course there are some. Why are you not looking at them?

Have you looked at the scientific information on vaccines I suggested? It provides clear information for parents based on research evidence.

https://vaccineknowledge.ox.ac.uk/

Yes, that's my understanding too

FFS why would you come to a public forum of strangers to ask their opinion about something so important?

This is silly and you know it

There is literally decades and decades of research from people who know how to do research, the real doctors and scientists, not some random online who barely passed entry level science

Talk to your GP about vaccines they will tell you. they are the one you need to ask not randoms on the internet

@Winnie98 Please read this.

From the World Health Organisation

Vaccines contain weakened or inactive parts of a particular organism (antigen) that triggers an immune response within the body. Other vaccines contain weakened or reconstituted virus or bacteria as a whole. Newer vaccines contain the blueprint for producing antigens (DNA or RNA) rather than the antigen itself. Regardless of whether the vaccine is made up of the antigen itself or the blueprint so that the body will produce the antigen, this weakened version will not cause the disease in the person receiving the vaccine, but it will prompt their immune system to respond much as it would have on its first reaction to the actual pathogen.

Quite simply herbal remedies won't do this. They can be used to treat the symptoms of diseases, but they won't prevent or cure a virus or a bacterial infection.

Another point to remember is that vaccines don't just protect you. If enough of the population are vaccinated they provide herd immunity for those who are unable to be vaccinated for whatever reason and those who are immunocompromised.

I had measles when I was six, and remember lying in a darkened room feeling very ill. It has affected my eyesight and my hearing. I remember seeing kids in calipers (leg irons) because they had contracted polio.

You might like to read this article

https://www.immunology.org/public-information/what-immunology

You will, of course, have covered immunology in biology GCSE.

No-one is being nasty.

If you don't vaccinate your child, and your child is able to be vaccinated, you are a bad mum.

You are a bad mum, a bad neighbour and a terrible member of society.

These illness were eradicated. Literally gone, unheard of in the UK. Until idiots started saying that their special snowflake children couldn't possible risk the very minimal side effects of vaccines that had been given to millions of children over decades.

If you want to understand the risks and potential side affects, look at the WHO website, talk to your DR and read the NHS information and then once you see the overwhelming evidence that vaccines are safe, appropriate and necessary go and get your child fucking vaccinated.

There are plenty of things that have become completely normal parts of modern life that people have concerns about, and people are allowed to question those things without automatically being labelled a bad parent.

Unfortunately, none of your examples equate to vaccination. An example that equates to modern life where, for example, we might say that actually no, it's very binary, is basic traffic. Modern life means are children are out and about in traffic. And so no one says, "it's okay, just let a toddler cross the road when they life - traffic isn't so bad and even if it is bad, people mostly survive." Instead, we obsessively teach our children how to safely cross roads pretty much from the day they are born. Because we KNOW it's not safe. Or maybe seatbelts is a better example - seatbelts are a relatively new invention, especially for backseats. And yes, some people dont' use them. But there's no debate on their value as a safety mechanism. It's a binary truth. We don't need to /"research" or discuss it or "make our own decisions". The intrinsic increased risk when NOT using a seat belt is well understood.

Or perhaps a similar example is basic first aid. We all know that a bad cut should be cleaned up becuase otherwise an infection can set in. And I think we'd all agree that leaving a child with a very bad cut is intrinsically neglectful parenting becuase it's just a given - we KNOW it's bad and dangerous. There's no debate about it. Some peopel might not know how to do the cleaning properly or whatever, but the basic knowledge is binary - a bad wound needs to be cleaned to prevent infection.

The reality is that people get frustrated becuase vaccinations are NOT like making a decision on whether to give your child a mcdonalds or not. They're NOT like deciding whether or not choose a surgery today or wait 5 years and do physiotherapy in the meantime where there are notable pros and cons. This is a very simple binary thing - vaccines save lives. The risks are hugely hugely tiny vs the risk if the child gets one of these diseases. Binary. Not a risk/reward analysis.

Sorry but I think that any parent who makes the choice not to vaccinate unless they have some very valid medical based reason not to is a bad parent. Generally I try not to judge (and believe me working in a school I see all sorts) but when it comes to people taking such a gamble with their own child’s life (and the life of others who are immunocompromised) then yes I do judge.