Drastic action to tackle 5&7 YO behaviour

[CraftyC]

I have two girls age 5 and 7. Just short of 2 years between them. Their behaviour needs a drastic overhaul.

We have employed gentle parenting ideas for years. My patience level is very high. We discuss things calmly, we highlight bad behaviour, I do employ consequences such as time out for negative behaviour or a positive based "tokens in the jar" for good behaviour. Generally, the 7 YO has had good behaviour before the last 6 months. The 5 YO has been VERY challenging from a young age but we coped.

Their behaviour lately is DISGUSTING. Never ending arguing. Like hours and hours of constant fighting, shouting at us every time we ask them to do something (mainly 7 YO), destroying rooms with clothes or activities and then refusing to tidy anything up without a battle, immense tantrums, ingratitude, general incredibly spoiled brat behaviour. Think Veruca Salt on steroids. My house is hellish to live in. Full of them shouting, fighting, demanding, screaming. I rarely raise my voice because I learned years ago that has no effect. I am living in utter misery. We dont literally spoil them with things as money isnt readily available so its not that. They have no screen time during the week so i cant blame it on that. I am essentially being bullied by my children. They just think I am their slave. Their treatment of me and my husband is vile. Nothing I do is working. I am in shock that I have raised kids to be like this.

They need a HUGE reset. As a teacher I have seen what happens when parents dont tackle this, but my small day to day "that is not acceptable behaviour" phrasing is not working. We need something big. I was thinking of removing their toys and things they trash about the place (not books), and their behaviour determines if they get their things back. I was thinking of a big chart to track day to day. We need a way of moving from "ah they are little" to "no. You are responsible for your behaviour. Here is the consequence. I am not accepting this".

I am done being a push over with my kids. I refuse to raise brats. I am fighting for their behaviour. I need ideas as to how to hammer this out because I cannot live like this anymore.

If anyone says "be positive with them" I will ignore you. Being positive has got my into this situation.

Siblings don't always get on. I found it went in cycles - they'd be fine for a few months, then one would go to the next development phase and they would be arguing for the next 6 months or so. Don't expect them to get on. Stop physical fighting, but let them play independently if each other and follow there own interests.

Very firm boundaries, consistently enforced by both patents. Stop talking everything through. If they are misbehaving, give one warning. If behaviour doesn't improve, then a loud no, or stop it and move them on to something else. Physical violence or rudeness/back chat, no second chances. Time out, sent to room, toy removed, removal of privileges - whatever is appropriate at the time. Instant and immediate.

Do they share a room?
whst is there post school routine

the starting point for these things is always routine - sleep/food etc as behaviour tends to come from issues here

Yes they have to share a room. We dont have a third room at the minute to have them have separate bedrooms unfortunately

Generally I have been doing all of this but something isnt working. I am a teacher so I am well practiced in consistency. It just runs to them screaming at us. We have taken toys had time in rooms, had privileges taken. They never change their behaviour. I need to be major major levels of consistent but also they need a jolt, a big change.

And I would say that is a huge part of the problem I’m afraid they don’t get time to decompress by themselves after school

figuring out why is the first step at dealing with it and sharing a room is unfortunately part of that.

where do they go after school how does it work?

a lot of this comes from overstimulation so figuring out that is key

then implementing firm boundaries etc once the routine has been fixed

You need to not engage at all. If they shout or scream at you when you tell them no, or take something away, just ignore, ignore, ignore. No attention for bad behaviour. And don't try and reason or argue with them. Don't get drawn in. You've said what you've said, once, and that's it. No discussion, unless it is calm discussion.

Do they get time away from each other?
The difference between a 5yo and a 7yo can be quite significant - more than at other stages I think.

Their post school routine is home by 4:30, then independent play while I cook, then dinner together, always home made, then we do reading or crafts together until bed routing at 7pm, in bed by 7:30. They sleep till 7am. No TV unless weekends.

Was in a very similar situation. I actually thought I was heading for a breakdown.
What helped for me, sad to say it but punishments. Constant punishments. Fucking draining but effective.

Find what bothers them. Early bedtime? No tv. Cancelled play dates. Keep reminding them why. Time out step, whatever it takes. Every. Single. Time.

I also reminded them all the time what behaviour expectations I have and when they were not meeting them. I only relaxed them when I saw real change.

Being screamed at is not acceptable.
How do you respond?

7.30 bedtime is quite late for a 5 yo isn't it? Can the younger one go a bit earlier whilst the older one has some time to herself?

So they are treated the same? it is a lot of together and seen as a unit in terms of everything and I think that is causing the issues between the two

where are they for the independent play?

do they both have the same bedtime routine

look something isn’t working for them and it is going to be here.

are they better/worse at weekends?

have you spoken to the 7 year old in particular when she is calmer

All of this.

As a mum of 3 and someone who works with kids this exactly i would say but gentle parenting does not work. Kids need boundaries, rules and most importantly they need to know the adults are in charge as it helps them feel safe. How much one to own time do they get with you? Do they have their own interests and friends away from each other? They absolutely need that.

Stop with the gentle parenting. It isn't working. They are destroying things and creating chaos, and they fee entitled to your labour in clearing up their messes

They need to know that you are the boss, you tell them what to do, and they do it or else. The "or else" bit is on you to work out.

Have you backtracked to find out what’s happening during the school day? Perhaps one of them is getting seriously wound up by someone or something and then that is spilling over at home.

My best suggestion is to separate them. Perhaps one of them goes off to play independently while the other one reads to you. And then swap.

The 5 yo is quite little to play independently while you cook. Would it hurt to let them watch a Christmas movie whilst they are having a glass of milk and an apple? You could encourage them to play downstairs in the living room, eg bring a toy or game down to play together or alone.

In my experience kids this age cannot be trusted to share, be fair or play board games without huge squabble and strops!

They are at school 5 days a week in separate years

Tried that. They just follow me around shouting.

That is not the same as being able to relax in their own home/space or have one on one time with a parent!!
You presumably don't work with your partner, but don't want to spend every remaining hour if the week with them!

Yes with other people. Where is there ability to just be by themselves without needing to be with others.

they go from being in a classroom to constantly with each other and being treated the same

and they are clearly unhappy and frustrated with that @CraftyC because their behaviour is showing it.

Do they behave the same way with their father?

I will say, I appreciate people trying to work out why this is happening but I am done with the "why". I cant waste any more time on it. I need a solid "this is what you do to quash this now". There behaviour is unacceptable. We are a loving family. They are treated well. I will not excuse their behaviour. I want to show its not being tolerated anymore. I dont want to explore the why right now. I have been doing that for months. It has only gotten worse.

I must admit I’m shocked you are a teacher, as a fellow teacher I’m sure you can see like I do the results of pandering too much to children’s wants. Very firm boundaries. Sometimes they have to do things and it doesn’t need a discussion. Tidy your room, yes I’ll help but any shouting at you or demands withdraw, let them calm down.

I know it’s hard, just because im
a teacher I’m not a perfect parent but we have the advantage that we can see how negatively affected children are by being listened to endlessly and thinking they can do what they want.

Because the why is the only bloody way to solve it and it’s clear they are over stimulated and don’t get time by themselves and are treated as a pair rather than individuals

but go ahead try and fix it without that OP

Then you need to find your shouting voice and use it. " How DARE you talk to me like that! Get to your room and stay there until you're ready to apologise!"

Then physically plonk them in their room. You are big, they are small. Show then whete the power is. Because, right now, you have ceded all the power to them.

I have done all of that. I am firm. They just hit back (not physically). Everyone says i am strict. I have always been strict. They just WILL NOT STOP arguing with me. I have confiscated toys, cancelled events, banned TV, done bloody wall charts, praised, stuck to boundaries like glue. I know what to do. They just wont stop. It makes no sense. Now I need to go full throttle somehow. I spend my life fighting them. I am exhausted.