Drastic action to tackle 5&7 YO behaviour

[CraftyC]

I have two girls age 5 and 7. Just short of 2 years between them. Their behaviour needs a drastic overhaul.

We have employed gentle parenting ideas for years. My patience level is very high. We discuss things calmly, we highlight bad behaviour, I do employ consequences such as time out for negative behaviour or a positive based "tokens in the jar" for good behaviour. Generally, the 7 YO has had good behaviour before the last 6 months. The 5 YO has been VERY challenging from a young age but we coped.

Their behaviour lately is DISGUSTING. Never ending arguing. Like hours and hours of constant fighting, shouting at us every time we ask them to do something (mainly 7 YO), destroying rooms with clothes or activities and then refusing to tidy anything up without a battle, immense tantrums, ingratitude, general incredibly spoiled brat behaviour. Think Veruca Salt on steroids. My house is hellish to live in. Full of them shouting, fighting, demanding, screaming. I rarely raise my voice because I learned years ago that has no effect. I am living in utter misery. We dont literally spoil them with things as money isnt readily available so its not that. They have no screen time during the week so i cant blame it on that. I am essentially being bullied by my children. They just think I am their slave. Their treatment of me and my husband is vile. Nothing I do is working. I am in shock that I have raised kids to be like this.

They need a HUGE reset. As a teacher I have seen what happens when parents dont tackle this, but my small day to day "that is not acceptable behaviour" phrasing is not working. We need something big. I was thinking of removing their toys and things they trash about the place (not books), and their behaviour determines if they get their things back. I was thinking of a big chart to track day to day. We need a way of moving from "ah they are little" to "no. You are responsible for your behaviour. Here is the consequence. I am not accepting this".

I am done being a push over with my kids. I refuse to raise brats. I am fighting for their behaviour. I need ideas as to how to hammer this out because I cannot live like this anymore.

If anyone says "be positive with them" I will ignore you. Being positive has got my into this situation.

You know what to do. Obviously not as what you've tried isn't working. What do you say to them when they are calm, do they give any clues as to why they are acting like this? Do they accept when calm that this behaviour is unacceptable? Two things strike me, attention seeking, you say they follow you around shouting, clearly there's anger there as they are confrontational and there we are back to attention seeking. Do you take them out seperately for activities or do they always go together? May be worth dealing with them seperately. Send the oldest to your room and the youngest to her own and leave them there until they apologise. If they start arguing again put them back in seperate rooms until they understand that their actions have consequences.at least if they are in seperate rooms, you'll be getting some peace and quiet.

I haven’t read the whole thread but I have read all of your posts @CraftyCand I might be able to offer some help.

My youngest simply would not respond to traditional discipline methods. It was frustrating as things that would work for other DC just either made her worse or she just ignored them.

Can i suggest a couple of tweaks? Do they have a snack and drink after school? If so, I’d let them do this with the TV on. Some DC need a screen to regulate. Letting them have TV in the week doesn’t make you a bad Mum, it means you are often responding to their needs.

You might have to abandon all of the methods you’ve tried so far. You’ve tried them for ages, you’ve been consistent and they’re just not working. Time for a change. I’d recommend looking at the book 10 days to a less defiant child.

Could it alao be possible that they are dopamine seeking with this behaviour? It took me a while to realise this was going on here. Look up natural ways to increase dopamine and give them a high protein breakfast if possible and see if things improve.

A PP suggested getting them into clubs or groups, partly so that they have another activity to focus on and partly so that they have time apart. I think this is a good idea. I would look at things like Scouts, Brownies, Hockey, Football and Swimming.

I think an hour of TV after school with a snack is fine. That’s what we did in the 80s and 90s as kids. Gave mum chance to get dinner on and up kids could chill and relax after school. Seemed to be a happy medium.

This thread proves to me that no one on mumsnet actually agrees what ‘Gentle Parenting’ means. A lot of people are confusing it with permissive parenting for sure

The only definition I've ever been given is that it doesn't involve harsh punishment. But many of us who are straight down the line we are doing this and I'm not giving you any lengthy explanation and you are not arguing with me - would never dream of hitting a child and try our best not to shout too.
So I'm none the wiser.

It doesn't have a definition. That's the entire problem with it as a "philosophy". It's defined by what it's not (authoritarianism), which is why when you first come across it, it does feel as though it's a concrete thing with a definition/history/founder/driving philosophy. In truth it has none of those things. You do find that certain themes tend to pop up again and again, but they are neither universal to all gentle parents nor exclusive to it. The definition is not shared between members, the origins of the term are muddy (it seems to have emerged in internet forums some time around the 00s/early 10s, certainly it was in established use online at least on UK forums before Sarah Ockwell-Smith published the book of the same name).

The book is unusual that way in that most "named" movements start from a book and the term gets popularised because of that. The book borrowed concepts from the online discourse but it was only ever that one person's interpretation of it, just as any of us who ever identified (or still do) with the term had or have our own interpretation of it.

Interestingly I came across this piece of research after I came to this conclusion myself which suggests the same as the patterns I noticed - that there are parenting themes which have slightly more prevalence among self-identified "gentle parents" but there are none which are universal or exclusive, aside from the one which I hadn't picked up on personally (I think because this came more with what I think of as the "second wave" of gentle parenting identity) which is that self-identified gentle parents have a much greater tendency to feel that they are making waves, breaking cycles, or doing things very differently from their own parents and/or that their own parents did badly.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0307492

Sadly I don’t think the OP is coming back.

That's really interesting @BertieBotts - I do like a good history of parenting practice! Dr Spock has always fascinated me too.

This really concerns me. Surely as a teacher, you can see that the key to this is UNDERSTANDING why they behave as they do. It seems clear to me that it is behaviour which they will not stop because of punishment, which means they either can't control the behaviour or find each other so annoying that they want to be angry with each other even if that makes life less nice for both of them. Short of doing something that will actually hurt them so they are too scared to fight I think you have lost the battle. You need to work out why they get on so badly and figure it out from there.

You are absolutely right to be wanting to instil some discipline at this stage. But you also need to cut yourself some slack. You are both working long hard hours in what sound like demanding jobs. You sound a bit tight for space. It’s winter and difficult to get out and about to burn off their energy and Christmas is coming with all the excitement and hype. You are probably exhausted.
You sound at the end of your tether. Can DH take them (swimming?) for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning to tire them out and give you a break from kids? Do they do sports -gymnastics, foootball, martial arts? All great for building resilience, discipline and teamwork.
You’ve had lots of great advice on this thread. Consistency is key. You really do need to be a stuck record. Take back the power. Don’t let them grind you down. Let them understand that actions have consequences. They are absorbing much more than you think and you have more influence over them than you know. They are still very little kids.
I’d being doing a hard reset. Sit them down with both you and DH. Explain that life is about to change. Have a set of clear and simple guidelines. Make them family rules. Write them out and stick them on the fridge. They apply to everyone (including you and your husband). Screaming is not tolerated. Consequence is X. Fighting is not tolerated consequence is Y. Etc.
I think if you are wholly consistent, back each other up and enforce the consequences, you’ll see a difference in three to four months. I’d be making a kids tea much earlier than 6pm and getting the wee one down earlier. You and your husband can eat together later when they are in bed and enjoy each other’s company. Family meals only at weekends until they learn to behave.
Are they well behaved at school? Siblings fight. They both fight for your attention and they fight to be differentiated from each other. They divide and rule. Don’t let them. The key is a united front with DH, total consistency, tiring them out with exercise, clear routine and cutting yourself as much slack as possible. Don’t expect perfection. Good enough is good enough. This too will pass. You are doing a great job. They will turn out just fine.

Maybe try something like 123 Magic (there’s a book which you will need to read first), with a big sit-down conversation to explain that this is how things are going to be from now on, this is why we’re doing it. A lot of people don’t like 123 Magic (as it involves zero discussion and instant time outs, which some people find authoritarian) but I was where you are now with my DS, and it sorted the problem within days. And he was way happier knowing that we were in control. Rough first few days, but after that he seemed to understand that we just weren’t tolerating it any more, started behaving himself, and discovered it was very nice not to have to talk about his behaviour all the time.

The gist of 123 magic is that when bad behaviour starts, you count 1…2… (not so slowly that they calculate they have x amount of time to finish whatever they’re doing that they shouldn’t be)- if they’re still doing it by the time you get to 3, they are escorted to their room for time out for a set time. If, after time out, they then go straight back to misbehaving, skip the counting and straight to 3 and time out. Some behaviours, like hitting or deliberately breaking things (for example) would be an immediate 3. The guy who wrote it advocates not then discussing the behaviour unless it’s new behaviour, dangerous, or amounted to bullying/hurting someone. I was skeptical of this (as I thought, how will he learn?) but actually, I quickly realised that letting bad behaviour be the focus of lengthy conversations fed the behaviour as loads of talking about it, even very gently and compassionately, got him into a pattern of thinking he was a naughty boy. We actually spent a lot less time focused on negative things by giving a 5-min time out and then moving straight on than trying to talk it through all the time. The result being that, although he gets (rarely these days) time outs, as I don’t engage in lengthy discussions with him about bad behaviour except in very specific circumstances, the vast majority of behaviour-related conversations are me praising his GOOD behaviour. I thought I’d been framing behaviour conversations as positively as I could, but this change made a huge difference to his self esteem.

Also, I realised that 99% of the time, he KNOWS what behaviour is acceptable and unacceptable, he doesn’t need me to tell him at age 7 (obviously, if it’s something we haven’t seen before, I will spell out why it’s not ok just in case he doesn’t know). But generally, he doesn’t need me to explain to him that refusing to tidy his toys/shouting at me/whatever behaviour is wrong and why. He knows!

I made it very clear when we started exactly what he should expect to happen if he wasn’t behaving, which I felt was important because I wanted him to at least know what the plan and reason for it was (and to draw a sort of line in the sand as well). I demonstrated by counting to 3 and putting daddy in time out, which he thought was excellent 😆

This won’t be the right approach for every kid. But it worked wonders for mine, and not just in terms of making my life easier. I thought this type of approach might feel oppressive, but nope- he 100% sees himself as well behaved and has actually told me he prefers it to ‘non-stop talking’ 😆

Refuse to argue. They are too small to argue with. Just disengage.

As soon as they start arguing, seperate them, in seperate rooms, for ten minutes. Second offence, 15 mins etc.

Also, don't use long winded sentences like 'i'd like you to do this because it will make it easier......'. Blah blah blah. It doesn't work.

Use short, simple instructions. Sit down. Stop that. Eat properly. Etc.

They are too young for complicated stuff. Keep things simple.

@CraftyC

I'm going straight to tactics mine are almost 4 and 2 so I might be giving this a hollow laugh in 3 years at my arsehole advice but you sound desperate so here's what I have...

We do the following.
If a child plays badly with something if it is immediately removed. 2 yr old gets 1 x "no" with a redirect. Oldest just has it removed " you know thats not how we play with that. we dont do that. I'm putting x away you can try again tomorrow." If they pick up or throw anything else it in a tantrum it goes too. By object 3 we are done. Normally we just get a grumble and it stops at 1

If oldest is behaving badly or dangerously and are disregulated they are put on there bed and told "stay here and calm down.
do not move from this bed or there will be consequences" in my scary voice (which is quite quiet!) while I do whatever I need to.

As soon as they are rough or hurt me non accidentally I say calmly "no. Dont do that. I don't like that" and I will leave the room if my dh is there and go to another room and close the door. Or i solo, i will put oldest in the hall and tell her to calm down and come back when she wants to play nicely.

We often play games now oldest is 2 where it's them vs mummy / daddy both of us. So they are on the same team.
We also do turn based games - if you are shit at sharing ypu get removed and the other gets to keep playing. Sharing has improved radically as a result.

We do rough house to get out energy tye rule is if anyone say stop you stop immediately (daddy initially often got told off for this)
We do bedtime discos with glowsticks too those are fun.

Check out bratbusters.
Ignore the name. She basically endorses being firm fair and no nonsense with none of the big therapy session nonsense and no big emotional displays. You deal with it and move on. No more emotion than if you were making a sandwich and I do focus on fun a lot and we have a lot of fun.

Some of this works because they are younger and cant open doors etc but I can see already the oldest especially think about carrying on and decides its not worth it/ not too.

I wpuld encourage them tp negotiate and solve themselves.
Eg
Dd1 I want bluey / to play twister
Dd2 I want octonauts / hungry hippo / whatever
Mum: okay you have 5 mins to work it out and agree if you dont no tv for 30 mins / no games we will go for a walk instead / whatever. Puts on timer>

It sounds like they are mentally tired but not physically tired after school. Try swimming once a week. Tennis or dance lessons. Gymnastics?
After school sounds pretty dull tbh. No screens, no play dates… get them out of the house. Walk to the library if it has to be book based. Stick them in the garden - come rain or shine. Get them doing chores. Cooking with you. Walk to the shop. Do Joe Wicks circuits with them. Ride bikes to places. Don’t give them the opportunity to get too comfortable playing in the house - it’s for calm and sleep!

Stick them in the garden - come rain or shine.

In the dark?

My DCs play in the park in the dark - we got them glow in the dark stomp rockets and frisbees for this very purpose.
Which reminds me, as it's coming up to Christmas holidays, must find them and replace if necessary. They are 13 and 11 but one definitely ADHD and the other possibly.

Ok, get organised and batch cook some healthy meals so you don't have to spend each night cooking a brand new meal. This gives you time to do some fun stuff with them rather than sitting with them(?) in the evening.
They need to burn energy, that is obvious.