Drastic action to tackle 5&7 YO behaviour

[CraftyC]

I have two girls age 5 and 7. Just short of 2 years between them. Their behaviour needs a drastic overhaul.

We have employed gentle parenting ideas for years. My patience level is very high. We discuss things calmly, we highlight bad behaviour, I do employ consequences such as time out for negative behaviour or a positive based "tokens in the jar" for good behaviour. Generally, the 7 YO has had good behaviour before the last 6 months. The 5 YO has been VERY challenging from a young age but we coped.

Their behaviour lately is DISGUSTING. Never ending arguing. Like hours and hours of constant fighting, shouting at us every time we ask them to do something (mainly 7 YO), destroying rooms with clothes or activities and then refusing to tidy anything up without a battle, immense tantrums, ingratitude, general incredibly spoiled brat behaviour. Think Veruca Salt on steroids. My house is hellish to live in. Full of them shouting, fighting, demanding, screaming. I rarely raise my voice because I learned years ago that has no effect. I am living in utter misery. We dont literally spoil them with things as money isnt readily available so its not that. They have no screen time during the week so i cant blame it on that. I am essentially being bullied by my children. They just think I am their slave. Their treatment of me and my husband is vile. Nothing I do is working. I am in shock that I have raised kids to be like this.

They need a HUGE reset. As a teacher I have seen what happens when parents dont tackle this, but my small day to day "that is not acceptable behaviour" phrasing is not working. We need something big. I was thinking of removing their toys and things they trash about the place (not books), and their behaviour determines if they get their things back. I was thinking of a big chart to track day to day. We need a way of moving from "ah they are little" to "no. You are responsible for your behaviour. Here is the consequence. I am not accepting this".

I am done being a push over with my kids. I refuse to raise brats. I am fighting for their behaviour. I need ideas as to how to hammer this out because I cannot live like this anymore.

If anyone says "be positive with them" I will ignore you. Being positive has got my into this situation.

This! Sometimes you need to show them who is boss!

OP, I agree with your idea of a reset.

I exhibited similar behaviour with my sister growing up, and one day, my mum had had enough. Everything was taken away except for the bare bones of our beds, desks, and clothes. No toys, no TV, nothing.

I’ll never forget my mum’s words: ‘I’m not your servant. I pay for your things. If you treat me like a servant you get nothing.’

Well, let me tell you that, after much protest in which my dad had to come and intervene, we changed our tune. Our things were gradually given back to us. However, I remember throwing one of my toys at my sister, and my mum picked it up off the floor and put it in the bin! I never did it again.

I have a great relationship with my parents and sister now, by the way. But mum needed to assert some authority because the house was getting out of control. I have thrown my own kids toys in the bin if they are thrown or used in a dangerous way. I also put on noise cancelling headphones and go about my day, ignoring any screaming or bickering. It usually stops once they realise I’m not going to respond in any way.

I realise my view isn’t popular, but if you have truly tried everything else consistently, then this might be the only way.

It seems like sending them to their room isn’t that much of an issue for them. You need to find something they truly care about. They don’t get screens during the week (which I greatly admire by the way!) but is there something on weeknights that could be a consequence for behaving badly?
Someone else suggested an earlier bedtime? Or not participating in a family activity?

Or perhaps you start a nice pre-bed tradition, but they don’t get it if they misbehave?

Is the behaviour worse in the evenings or on weekends? What are they like during the holidays when they are with you all day?

Do they sleep well over night, or are they up a few times?
All.kids are different, but they would be too early bedtimes for us here.

Can you get them interested in making tea with you? Either taking it in turns, whilst the other one gets to play or whatever ob their own, or once or twice a night cooking with you together (appreciate this could be a disaster, but might be worth a go).

Also, just to say I dont think you (or your parenting) are to blame here, just sometimes kids get on and sometimes they clash.

When we were younger and my mum had had enough of us bickering, being rude or ungrateful, she would take herself off to bed, shut the door and say I'm on strike. When that happened we knew we had pushed her too far and we tidied up, apologised, brought her a cup of tea etc. She didn't do it often but when she'd reached the end of her tether! Your girls are a bit young but I think you'd be fair enough to say I've had enough of you both and I'm going into my bedroom to read/watch TV and you can both stay here in the lounge and argue to your hearts content!

With the shouting at you, I would genuinely ignore and busy yourself doing something. Yes they will follow you but you don't look at them or speak to them. It might take some time but they will eventually learn that shouting at you doesn't get them what they want. Give lots of attention for good behaviour, ignore as much of the bad behaviour as you can!

Id say ignore the ‘must have separate bedrooms’ talk on here - for centuries children didn’t have their own bedrooms, you don’t have an extra so don’t give it a second thought. We do have an extra and mine share, it teaches them about being respectful and understanding boundaries.

I am another for consistency and I would use the step rather than the bedroom. As you say your daughter likes going to her room to read. I have a son and he can be challenging as a six year old boy and some days he will go on the step 5 times, then he won’t go for weeks. It’s hard work, he kicks and screams when he is put on there but I make him stay - even if it’s an hour battle.

My oldest also does clubs and for a while I threatened him not going to various ones but never actually followed through as I am a big for commitment - big mistake! Whatever you do make sure you can complete on it.

Im terrible as this as my children go on at me but do try the - I will not be spoken to like that, if you want something ask nicely or I won’t speak to you.

Good luck!

It sounds like you are an amazing mum who really cares for her children.
My sister and I were like this growing up and were in a single parent household.
Im worried that if you can’t get a handle on this now then it will only get worse in the future.
I think you might need to get in the mindset that you may have to do something a bit more drastic so your children take you seriously.
Maybe wait for a cold wet day and have a really muddy family walk something that they will perceive as being a bit ‘epic’.
Every week there after if you hear a raised voice of argument between them you do the same walk at the weekend in the name of ‘family time’.

I wonder whether they are tired and letting them have some time in front of cbbc or similar when they get in might reduce the conflict and they may be more cooperative after dinner. You say the eldest likes to read so she could read in her room while the younger one watches tv. Just an idea to reduce sibling conflict though appreciate it may feel like rewarding bad behaviour.

Let them have a bit of CBeebies for Christ sake

When are they at their best? Park, swimming, lazy weekend? It might be helpful to think about what is happening when they are demonstrating respectful behaviour and are calm and happy.

But if you get to the why and solve that then you will stop the behaviour.

If this is new behaviour then your daughter is communicating that something is wrong - support in this area and behaviour will improve.

For me, I would try two things:

First is that you need to instill a (tiny) bit of fear. I know this isn't loved in modern parenting, but I do personally believe that authority generally comes from different types of fear. It can be fear of a reprisals (punishments) or it can be fear of judgement/disappointment (say from a teacher whose abilities you respect), but most feelings of authority come from some fear that keeps you obeying.

That doesn't mean your children will be afraid of you or not love you. Children often have fear associated with those they love the most, because they are worried about upsetting/disappointing/hurting that person. Same with teachers. I loved my old music teacher, was I afraid of him? No, but I admired and respected him a lot, and I was afraid of what he would think of me if I didn't try my best etc.

So my first step is that you need to foster some small amount of fear. Shouting without any fear gets ignored. Whether that is through consistent punishments, or loosing rewards, or from your own reaction/emotion, I don't know, it depends on your kids.

Second, I would isolate your daughters and make sure you spend quiet 1-1 time with each. Split up with your husband and take them out separately. For a walk, for a coffee + cake, for a drive. Anywhere that gives you space to talk 1-1. Talk, not just play.

Then in those times, talk about behavior, emotion, disappointment, respect etc.

It has been my experience both as a parent and an educator that Children listen best 1-1, and when they are relaxed, not being punished, and not distracted with playing. So a walk through fields etc. is perfect. That is the best opportunity to actually get your learning through to them, so as well as the slight fear of getting in trouble, they actually properly understand why and how to behave.

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Maybe that won't work, but it is what I would try (and have done with Children before)

You sound so tired, OP.

I'm a mum of five (now grown up) and while I wasn't always the best mum to them, they speak very fondly of their childhoods. But I SHOUTED. I ignored. I wore headphones or listened to music in the kitchen so I didn't have to hear the arguing (oh, dear God, the arguing, five kids in seven years, they could ARGUE...)

Sometimes I think we intervene too soon. Can you try leaving things? If they make a mess, leave it. Do one big clear up rather than lots of small ones. If they argue, only step in if it looks like physical violence will result - let them sort their own disputes. Be brisk and unapologetic, 'well, I'd love to help you play with your game, but unfortunately I have to clear the living room of all the mess you made first, come and help me and I might have time to play.'

My lot were feral little buggers who spent most of their time outdoors pestering the pets which kept them apart. I regularly lost my shit with them and read the riot act and they have still managed to turn out University educated, high earning (and still speaking to me and each other!).

I would probably go the opposite and praise for every little good thing they did for a week, just as an experiment. I notice with my dd who is same age as your eldest, that when i am telling off/making demands much more often than praising, things go downhill quickly. It sours the relationship. So as tempting as it is to think the 'right' punishment will solve all this (and I do get it) I honestly think radically going the other way might help. Sometimes with kids any attention is good attention. And at the moment they're getting a lot of attention for acting up.
I would also agree with pps who have said they might need more time apart whilst at home. Mine two often do.
Also at around 7, it's like a pre-puberty stage which can affect how they deal with things. Adrenarche I think.

Just as examples of the praising that I try and up when we need a reset: you spoke so nicely to your brother, you were so helpful setting the table, you came straight away when I asked you, thank you, I noticed how hard you worked on your craft etc

They need their own bedrooms.
Give one of them yours and you sleep on a sofa bed in the living room.

They need their own bedrooms.
Give one of them yours and you sleep on a sofa bed in the living room.

Jesus Christ on a bike.
I hope this wasn't a serious suggestion.

I know some families where kids share a room have some sort of rota to give each child some alone time. Could this be helpful here?

Be strict, then stricter, then stricter. Lower your voice and tell them firmly to stop their behaviour, right now. If they come at you shouting and screaming stand your ground and look straight at them, with an expression that says you don't care about their screaming and you mean business. When they don't get a reaction you will take the wind out of their sails, and once they are ( hopefully) not screaming tell them what they have done wrong, including how they make you feel, tell them what the consequences are and follow through, consistency is the key. Once the incident is over say thank you to them for listening and stopping, get them to say sorry to.you and remind them that you love them. Follow through every single time, don't forget your stern face. You need to take back control.

Can you not batch cook to give yourself some days you don't need to do as much? Eg make a spag bol sauce but a big quantity then freeze a portion for next week?
Or do a big dish of something that will last two nights like a big pasta bake?

It does sound a bit like you are setting yourself up to fail with an impossibe standard of parenting, with NO TV whatsoever Mon-Fri, cooked from scratch meal every night etc? Would it be so awful if a couple of nights a week when they are tired you let them watch 20 minutes of TV?!

I am struck by your evening routine, it feels very much like School. Play, reading and crafts. Do they have any afterschool activities? I appreciate you are working full time with children, and honestly I dont know how teachers do it, if they have kids, but it seems like you are coming home and putting your teacher head on again. Why dont you have a family movie night on a Friday (or a wednesday!)that is dependent on good behaviour all week, they get to chose, popcorn and sweets! could they each do one activity a week separately? They get to let of steam outside the house and you can sit for an hour and zone out. Even if you have to take one with you to watch the other, it gives you one on one time with each child. Hell, go crazy, get a macdonalds on the way home. It just feels like you are really trying your best to make every thing as perfect as it can be, but you all just sound very stressed out by it all. A bit of decompression in front of the TV when they come home while you cook, won't harm them. Everything in moderation.

Two things that have helped us:
ADHD Dude (find him on YouTube, or his podcast with another ADHD specialist). It's not that I think your DDs have ADHD but he is absolutely excellent on calm reactions to poor behaviour, shouting, arguing etc.
He recommends earning small immediate rewards for tasks completed (reading, tidying - on which note I think you have to break it down into tiny tasks for this age e.g. all your clothes off the floor not tidy your room).

Calmer Easier Happier Parenting - a book - Great on siblings playing independently.

This. I would suggest giving less of yourself to your children. Do less for them, ignore them more and give yourself an easier ride. You might all end up a bit less fraught.

Seek a functional behaviour assessment via your GP for both.

Have you tried giving them some tv together during the week? It might be something that they enjoy doing together and is a good way to relax after a full on day at school. I’d say that TV and going to the park/outdoor time would help massively with all of this.