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Drastic action to tackle 5&7 YO behaviour

117 replies

CraftyC · 07/12/2025 12:17

I have two girls age 5 and 7. Just short of 2 years between them. Their behaviour needs a drastic overhaul.

We have employed gentle parenting ideas for years. My patience level is very high. We discuss things calmly, we highlight bad behaviour, I do employ consequences such as time out for negative behaviour or a positive based "tokens in the jar" for good behaviour. Generally, the 7 YO has had good behaviour before the last 6 months. The 5 YO has been VERY challenging from a young age but we coped.

Their behaviour lately is DISGUSTING. Never ending arguing. Like hours and hours of constant fighting, shouting at us every time we ask them to do something (mainly 7 YO), destroying rooms with clothes or activities and then refusing to tidy anything up without a battle, immense tantrums, ingratitude, general incredibly spoiled brat behaviour. Think Veruca Salt on steroids. My house is hellish to live in. Full of them shouting, fighting, demanding, screaming. I rarely raise my voice because I learned years ago that has no effect. I am living in utter misery. We dont literally spoil them with things as money isnt readily available so its not that. They have no screen time during the week so i cant blame it on that. I am essentially being bullied by my children. They just think I am their slave. Their treatment of me and my husband is vile. Nothing I do is working. I am in shock that I have raised kids to be like this.

They need a HUGE reset. As a teacher I have seen what happens when parents dont tackle this, but my small day to day "that is not acceptable behaviour" phrasing is not working. We need something big. I was thinking of removing their toys and things they trash about the place (not books), and their behaviour determines if they get their things back. I was thinking of a big chart to track day to day. We need a way of moving from "ah they are little" to "no. You are responsible for your behaviour. Here is the consequence. I am not accepting this".

I am done being a push over with my kids. I refuse to raise brats. I am fighting for their behaviour. I need ideas as to how to hammer this out because I cannot live like this anymore.

If anyone says "be positive with them" I will ignore you. Being positive has got my into this situation.

OP posts:
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Allthesnowallthetime · 08/12/2025 19:25

My (now adult) kids are 2 years apart. At that age they did bicker and wind each other up. A lot!

Don't know if this is any use, but one thing that helped was making them each a day plan (or after school plan).

I planned things for them to do- separately. Put them on a chart ( not a reward chart). Small chores, crafts, 20 or 30 minutes of TV time, reading.

It kept them apart from each other, and occupied. They liked checking what was the next thing they were going to do.

Monvelo · 08/12/2025 19:26

I read a book once called 1,2,3 magic and we've sort of stuck with that. Basically for behaviour you want them to stop, they get a the 2 warnings and 3 they're sent to room for 1 minute per age. Back chat, is a count. Arguing back about the count is a count. If they come out of their room and start up again, back in they go. I like that the book has a big chunk on the positive and how to encourage good behaviours, and that it gives examples of application for different age kids. The count system is really clear which we found helps us parents as well as the kids, because we don't get dragged into arguments or negotiation, we have a way to deal with things we can directly employ. And we are both on the same page.

drspouse · 08/12/2025 19:31

MMAS · 08/12/2025 19:21

Seek a functional behaviour assessment via your GP for both.

I'm not sure any GP I've met would know a functional behaviour assessment if it came up and slapped them on the face.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Oldwmn · 08/12/2025 19:34

Look, my offspring are 48/50. I can still quell them with a Look. Gentle parenting (I don't even know what that means) sounds like they constantly feel that they can challenge you, that's normal. But they cannot get away with it.

GlobalTravellerbutespeciallyBognor · 08/12/2025 19:34

Completely take my hat off to you for being able to recognise poor behaviour in your children. So many parents can’t.

I’d stop the explaining, discussing, negotiating. ‘I’m exhausted. You do it this way or it doesn’t happen’.

Go full and consistently 1950s and all will be well. Plus you will have done the children a massive favour for later life.

Soggyspaniel · 08/12/2025 19:36

You can be firmer with them. Absolutely do not put up with them shouting at you!

If mine do any whinging/shouting/demanding at me I just say ‘I will not be doing anything for you/getting you anything whilst you are talking to me like that. I won’t be spoken to like that.’

Then I ignore them until they speak to me in a kind way or ask for something nicely. They’re 4 and 3 and have got the message!

Also, after school, let them have an hour of cbbc together whilst you cook. Just let them relax. They sound overstimulated and wound up too tight.

Monvelo · 08/12/2025 19:38

Its really hard to tell from just what you've said but I do also wonder if they are bored and making mischief. Are there any local clubs your 7yo could join? Rainbows or beavers? Swimming lessons? You then have some one on one time with the other.

daro · 08/12/2025 19:38

theonlygirl · 08/12/2025 19:03

I am struck by your evening routine, it feels very much like School. Play, reading and crafts. Do they have any afterschool activities? I appreciate you are working full time with children, and honestly I dont know how teachers do it, if they have kids, but it seems like you are coming home and putting your teacher head on again. Why dont you have a family movie night on a Friday (or a wednesday!)that is dependent on good behaviour all week, they get to chose, popcorn and sweets! could they each do one activity a week separately? They get to let of steam outside the house and you can sit for an hour and zone out. Even if you have to take one with you to watch the other, it gives you one on one time with each child. Hell, go crazy, get a macdonalds on the way home. It just feels like you are really trying your best to make every thing as perfect as it can be, but you all just sound very stressed out by it all. A bit of decompression in front of the TV when they come home while you cook, won't harm them. Everything in moderation.

I 100% agree with this. Their day feels very 'samey'. They need something different to look forward to when they get home, be it a trip to the playground or some TV (maybe every 2nd day they get to watch 30 mins ) or on external activity they do alone without the other.

I have 2 boys 18 months apart in age, 1 year apart in school. It was very easy for me to treat them as a unit and I did (they also shared a room). They are now 12 and 13 and the 13yo is still very jealous of his brother and feels hard done by all the time. He always feels we are much easier on his brother than him, his brother has a much easier personality so maybe he has a point :) I do wonder if we had separated them a bit more when they were younger would it have helped but who knows!!

I really do admire you not having screens during the week btw but sometime we as parents make rods for our own backs and maybe you need to give yourself a break and be a little more relaxed about dinner and screen time etc.

sparrowhawkhere · 08/12/2025 19:40

Focus on tea being made in slow cooker, just something to reheat. As soon as in be with them as they play, let them have an early bath with water play or watch a film. You have principles of no screens but then you’re all miserable! Limit screens but CBeebies is great. We loved Deadly 60 which is CBBC but time together.
Have tea, positive but consistent. Warning then immediate consequence e.g. can’t do craft with you. As soon as improvement back to doing craft and lots of praise.
After tea get put when good weather, time together encouraging independent play. Lots of positive. Aim for rewards e.g. if I see 10 times you’ve been kind ill buy a chocolate bar you like or I’ll take you on a walk to look at Christmas decorations. Doesn’t have to be expensive.

I do understand, I work and am exhausted from work but the effort is worth it.

schoolfriend · 08/12/2025 19:41

UnimatrixZeroOne · 08/12/2025 16:13

They need their own bedrooms.
Give one of them yours and you sleep on a sofa bed in the living room.

Can you imagine what % of children who have ever lived in a house have grown up with their own bedroom? A minuscule % so no, they don’t need their own bedroom. 🙄

BreakingBroken · 08/12/2025 19:42

For starters divide the room two separate distinct spaces.

Wildefish · 08/12/2025 19:45

CraftyC · 07/12/2025 13:27

Generally I have been doing all of this but something isnt working. I am a teacher so I am well practiced in consistency. It just runs to them screaming at us. We have taken toys had time in rooms, had privileges taken. They never change their behaviour. I need to be major major levels of consistent but also they need a jolt, a big change.

Drop the gentle parenting. Just say NO you will not be shouted at, and make them sit somewhere every time they do it and then ignore until they behave. Don’t get into discussing it either. They are old enough to know what they are doing is wrong. Give lots of praise when they are being good. You are the adult and be firm but fair. Firm but fun. Firm but loving.

DeathMetalMum · 08/12/2025 19:47

Two dd's with a similar age gap, also sharing a bedroom, although now older. Things that worked for us,

  • Stairs for time outs. We used top and bottom step, especially if both were arguing one dc one the top step the other on the bottom. It's really boring sitting on the stairs which helps.
  • Forced separate time one dc would go upstairs to play after school and the other dc the following night.
  • weekends would be split but would always get out of the house for some time, walk to local library, or park, bike ride, swimming, cinema etc, we had a membership for local zoo when dc were the same age as yours (Christmas and birthday gift from grandparents). Sometimes whole family sometimes dp would take both or one and other stay at home.

Behavior went in cycles, thinks like start of term or beginning of summer holidays made them behave terrible. Firm and consistent it's difficult but does work.

Wildefish · 08/12/2025 19:48

CraftyC · 07/12/2025 13:30

Their post school routine is home by 4:30, then independent play while I cook, then dinner together, always home made, then we do reading or crafts together until bed routing at 7pm, in bed by 7:30. They sleep till 7am. No TV unless weekends.

Maybe they need a little tv before dinner to just do nothing.

MMAS · 08/12/2025 19:53

UK GPs don't typically perform full Functional Behaviour Assessments (FBAs) themselves, but they are crucial first points of contact to recognize issues, offer initial support (like physical checks), and refer to specialist services like CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) or CLDT (Community Learning Disability Teams) where psychologists or specialists conduct FBAs for challenging behaviours, often linked to learning disabilities or autism. They also help with referrals for sensory or communication assessments through Occupational Therapists (OTs) or Speech & Language Therapists (SALT).
What GPs Do:

  • Identify Concerns: Notice behaviours during consultations, especially with parents, that might need intervention (defiance, aggression, etc.).
  • Physical Health Checks: Conduct checks for those with learning disabilities, linking behaviours to potential physical health issues.
  • Referrals: Signpost to specialist NHS services for in-depth assessments (CAMHS, Adult Mental Health, Learning Disability Teams).
  • Utilise "Right to Choose": In England, GPs can refer patients for autism/ADHD assessments to chosen providers under NHS Right to Choose.
Who Conducts FBAs (Post-GP Referral):
  • Clinical Psychologists/Behavioural Specialists: Conduct functional assessments to find causes of challenging behaviour.
  • Occupational Therapists (OTs): Carry out sensory assessments and create "sensory diets".
  • Speech & Language Therapists (SALT): Assess communication difficulties.
Next Steps for You:
  1. Book an appointment with your GP to discuss the behaviours.
  2. Be specific about the behaviours and when/where they happen.
  3. Ask for a referral to a specialist team if the GP agrees.
  4. Inquire about sensory/communication assessments if relevant.

Before you continue to Google Search

https://www.google.com/search?q=Functional+Behaviour+Assessments&rlz=1CAEXHG_enES1189ES1189&oq=do+uk+gps+offer+functional+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBECEYoAEyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRiPAjIHCAUQIRiPAtIBCTEwOTkxajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&mstk=AUtExfAZ3kXhMCK0GZB4Jz2KkvO56Zhobfrw7kEGUlK9qgR7UoMAjo00-sMwFavdpKXBO_FqaWa9aYHQnnmkRUFfiVUnQERM2kQJ6D1vf2VhAzUQY4H4X4U7BUuXUiuugyObvEG89COaOvQdyQ_1zGZ8hF6tm1D1SH9ookslTUrNRrG5AcfuxCxSyZqJpLWtQFTBIZ3XG0VGT5mrVeuOutPOQfOqzzjocYaW8lAEgX0PDST-WmZUSXu53tVr4_uLVEfDSuXYowf0_TJ8I23cEXz-sbzRuqsi7ZDGfoKNDW067hDSPg&csui=3&ved=2ahUKEwiyuI3h4a6RAxWYUkEAHSQ8D6IQgK4QegQIARAB

DeathMetalMum · 08/12/2025 19:55

Oh I'd also allow TV during the week. We did go through a phase of no tablets on Saturdays, as they would spend time during the week, and it was easier with both dp and I not at work. But they sometimes need to just veg after a school day.

Crazydoglady1980 · 08/12/2025 20:11

CraftyC · 07/12/2025 13:50

I have done all of that. I am firm. They just hit back (not physically). Everyone says i am strict. I have always been strict. They just WILL NOT STOP arguing with me. I have confiscated toys, cancelled events, banned TV, done bloody wall charts, praised, stuck to boundaries like glue. I know what to do. They just wont stop. It makes no sense. Now I need to go full throttle somehow. I spend my life fighting them. I am exhausted.

Explain to them what the consequence for a behaviour is and tell them that the timer for how long it takes starts when they stop arguing, so if they are arguing over a toy, you take the toy for 24 hours, that 24 hours starts from the time they stop moaning, crying, following you around demanding it.
if later in the day they start again, the 24hours starts again. And so on. It works quite quickly once they realise you mean it and their reaction has consequences too.

ChikinLikin · 08/12/2025 20:12

I am a softy. I think they need more screen time and more cuddles. I never sent my children to their rooms or punished them. Why would you foster that sort of loneliness and conflict? Seven is little and five is just a baby and, at the end of the Christmas term, a very tired baby. They are too tired and grouchy to play nicely.
So this is what I would do from now to the end of term: Buy or batch cook a load of wholesome ready meals. Announce that it is midwinter so the season for Christmas movies and early nights. 4.30 come home and shove ready meal in. Sit down and cuddle up together on the sofa and watch Elf. Have an interval to eat supper. Then cuddle up and watch the rest of Elf. Then bath, stories, bed. Repeat every evening with a different Christmas movie.

FluffyDiplodocus · 08/12/2025 20:17

I would let them watch TV after school personally - they’re probably a bit tired and winding each other up. I have a no Netflix before 5pm rule because there’s loads of crap on there but couldn’t see the harm in CBBC with a snack when they get home. Mine have a similar age gap and usually enjoyed the same shows (with strict turn taking with choosing the episode enforced!). At that age they’d watch back to back Bluey (as would I), nowadays it’s Horrible Histories.

In our house any poor behaviour meant time outs when they were younger, toys having time outs on a high shelf for an hour if they were fighting with a toy or attacking each other with it, and now they’re older it impacts the thing they care about most - screen time. At the weekend they play computer games, on the weekday evenings they watch kids YouTube of Minecraft on the sitting room TV with us monitoring it. They know that poor behaviour will impact these things. I feel like I should say for the record we do plenty of crafts, reading and board games and interact as a family!

Settings11111111 · 08/12/2025 20:18

CraftyC · 07/12/2025 16:35

We do try to split them but sometimes they are required to be in the same room. If they are in the same room for any more than 2 or 3 minutes they erupt.

I need help with their behaviour, with strategies to minimise the hellish behaviour. Please, I dont need suggestions I am already doing. I cant list all th things I am doing. I just asked for help with how to knock the bad behaviour on the head, not scrutinise myself again and again and blame it on me. They need consequences, not excuses. I need help with those consequences.

Ignore the criticism. My mother worked 4-10pm throughout our childhoods and we were looked after by either my Dad or grandparents. We got picked up, had tea, bathed, watched a bit of TV and went to bed. Doing anything exciting after school was unheard of and weekends were playing in the street or going shopping. People advising you lavish more time, attention and money on them are mad.

I would never, ever have argued with or shouted at my mother, because I was respectfully ‘scared’ of her. We became great friends as adults, but as a child I’d have been scared to argue and wouldn’t have dreamed of shouting.

Not sure if you’re already doing these but she was never scared to shout at us, but didn’t really have to because a look was enough. She’d send us to our rooms in extreme circumstances with pen and paper to write an apology letter. If she’d walked in and seen us reading or playing with a toy instead they’d go in the bin (or did they? Maybe she only took them away.) She’d threaten to go and tell the teacher how rude we were (don't think she ever did). She’d stop us playing out with our friends, or alternatively, if it was pleasant ish outside and we were arguing about stuff inside, she’d make us go out. Any complaining or arguing would’ve led to being told to do the dishes/hoover/go and walk to the shop for the paper and so we didn’t argue.

Maybe you’re already doing these things but just if helpful.

Yootoobr · 08/12/2025 20:19

They sound bored to me. Change up their toys in a drastic way, Christmas should help with that. Get outside whatever the weather, find some different activities - age appropriate.

And I'd put the TV on for a bit after school, let them unwind. It won't kill them.

BertieBotts · 08/12/2025 21:06

IME as a former gentle parenting addict with multiple generations of ADHD in the family Grin (I have done different bits of this at different times, and all the parts work.)

You need specific, clear behaviour goals/expectations, which include a replacement behaviour for the current problem behaviour. So for example if arguing with you is a particular issue, then maybe come up with a phrase which means "This conversation is over" (like the old MN gavel) - meaning they should walk away, they are allowed to scream/stomp/cry/moan/whatever as long as it is not at you and not causing any damage. (This addition may be a temporary step). Personally because I would worry about them feeling shut down Blush I would also add an explicit calmer avenue when explaining this new rule, that, if they do have a genuine grievance, they can get their voice heard. For example have a weekly family meeting where issues can be brought up, or say that they can write down what they want to say in a notebook, close the book and leave it for at least 1 hour/1 day, come back, read it, and decide whether to re-write it to be kinder, throw it away, or send it as-is but understand that a purely rude/insulting note might get them into trouble. The note-writing strategy might be a bit unfair for the 5yo depending on how well she can read/write/self-regulate - but it's one idea and a rather practical one for them to take into the future. Any trying to continue the argument verbally after the "gavel" has been brought down gets some kind of penalty, and/or use of the new strategy is recognised and rewarded, even if that is just with praise or attention.

You need a replacement parent response for you, in the moment, when they are winding you up and pushing every button. It undoes a lot of work when you're trying to do nothing and then lose it anyway. Give yourself something active to do. Doesn't matter what exactly it is. I've used de-escalation techniques from NVR, I've made myself inaccessible e.g. lock self in bathroom and read current favourite parenting book, but the one I think helps the most for ex-gentle parents is to have a relatively minor, completely generic, usually boring, not scary in any way consequence to pull out of your pocket at the moment when you feel you're in danger of losing your patience. The thing about this is that it's not something to wield like a weapon in a fight because that just escalates the situation and means you need to have a truly scary consequence like no TV ever again - which isn't sustainable. Some ways I've seen this used are the pasta jar method where you add bits of pasta for good behaviour and take one out for a consequence, and when the jar is full they get a reward. Or each child has a potential 20p they can gain by the end of each day, but the "boring consequence" is to lose 1p per infraction, and the money is paid out at bedtime. I've done it with paper tokens just like the coins. You can do time out if you can implement it calmly and they will do it. It needs to be repeatable up to roughly twice the amount of an average day's behaviour, so e.g. if they get an hour's TV and you take 15 mins per infraction, an average day should be 2 punishable things (which is probably unlikely, so 15 mins is too long for this purpose - make it 5 mins instead, or use something else.) Making it so small feels counterproductive but it's somehow not. It's apparently just as effective to use a small consequence as a big scary one and the purpose of this is mainly to give you something to do instead of engage in an argument. The other positive about making it small is that you 100% know they can cope with/handle the consequence and it's not worth feeling guilty about, but also you are unlikely to hit the tipping point where they lose everything, so they don't simply get used to not having the thing - which is a problem you can run into e.g. when banning TV for a week and then they misbehave again in the same week.

And YY I am aware of all the gentle parenting arguments against all these systems but I don't think they hold up. There is just one thing I will add - logical/related consequences don't matter that much - children still experience them as an adult imposed punishment. Natural consequences are usually much too delayed to be useful or they are too unpredictable and unfair. Sorry but this gentle parenting obsession doesn't hold up at all. In some scenarios it is fine e.g. you shouldn't be protecting them from things unnecessarily, and part of making amends/being responsible might be putting effort in to put something right. And if you have a specific rule, like about coming off screens nicely then it might make sense to have a specific, related consequence like coming off nicely = access the next day. (Again, the reason children tend to take this well is less because it's logical and more because it's clear and predictable, though being logical doesn't hurt). But for most things, do not waste brain space on trying to come up with a related consequence in the moment. It's irrelevant, and if you're angry you'll come up with something too harsh anyway.

You need some kind of structure for the new rules/consequences/ability to earn rewards (or earn current privileges back if you want to do it that way) but you have to stick to it - getting sympathetic and thinking oh but they really tried so they should get the reward undermines the system and adding on an extra punishment because you're extra annoyed makes it too personal and unfair. Equally, not bothering to enforce something e.g. not counting out the pennies properly because you don't have change stops it from working. It has to be systematic in order to make any sense and be effective. (YY again I know children are not robots but this is such a small part of behaviour management - the magic happens around these systems. Think of it as a map or rulebook for a game - the fun part is not reading the rules, but you need them otherwise the game isn't fun). IME, you can do it without involving the other parent if you need to so if they are unlikely to stick to it with the same precision then consider doing it on your own, as long as they aren't massively undermining you at every turn. It obviously works best if you both stick to the system so the system is effectively external. This also helps alleviate the "gentle parenting guilt" because instead of feeling like you are personally demonising them or questioning whether or not they really had pure intentions, you can point to the rules as the bad guy. Sorry, not my call, you hit someone you go in time out, that's how it works even if she did hit you first. (This actually works well if your rule/consequence is applicable to adults too and you both self-enforce e.g. putting yourself in time out for swearing).

You might need to prioritise and pick a few things to work on at a time rather than try to tackle everything at once. For anything outside the high priority targets remember your adult replacement behaviour or fall back on literally any other parenting tools.

If a behaviour expectation is consistently not being met despite the system/incentives/consequences, don't be tempted to up the consequence. Try making the stepping stone between the current behaviour and the wanted replacement behaviour and target that instead. It's more effective and gets you closer to where you want to be.

The bolded bits are the most important things. They are the exact reason why "just be positive" doesn't work IME. Needs more direction/action.

BertieBotts · 08/12/2025 21:16

And don't worry; MN is full of armchair psychologists who love to pick apart reasons for children misbehaving and come up with all kinds of imagined traumas.

Likewise strange competitive parenting in both directions, you either need to martyr yourself to child's every whim or you need to summon some kind of hidden inner Trunchbull according to some posters Grin no in between is possible!

IME you can tell when someone actually has experience of something vs they are chasing a hunch which feels right. Don't let the hunchers make you feel bad.

MellersSmellers · 08/12/2025 22:13

Fuck the gentle parenting. They're driving you to the brink and by your own admission your kids are brats. It is possible to be both loving and have firm boundaries.
Separate them when they argue; don't engage in any argument yourself; return them to their respective spaces when they leave their naughty steps; assert you are in charge. Sustain this over time. Reward them when they behave as you want.
You sound desperate and I know you want a solution that will work overnight. I don't think there is one, as this thread shows.

drspouse · 08/12/2025 22:30

@MMAS thanks for the laugh re GP referring to CAMHS for behaviour issues in primary school girls! Our DS was asking us to kill him and we couldn't get a referral. Thankfully it turned out to be an issue with his meds and he is in a very good place personally now.