13 year old has no relationship with 4 year old sister

[Purplekittenfurball]

my 13 barely has a relationship with her 4 year old sister. They also have an 11 year old brother.

13 yo is close to the 11 yo. 11 yo interacts with, is pleasant too, and has a positive relationship with the 4 yo. He will play a bit with her on occasion, engage her in conversation, do a puzzle with her (For example) or admire her dollies when she brings them over to him etc.

13 year old rarely speaks to the 4yo. The only occasions when she will is if she is asking her to stop doing something. In a disgusted or angry tone she will ask her “stop that” or “be quiet” or “cover your mouth”.

I am not expecting the 13 yo to have the same relationship with the 11yo and she has with the 4yo. They are naturally going to have very different interests, where the 13 yo and 11 yo have more in common at the moment. But I would love for them to have some kind of positive relationship. I worry that if they have nothing now- then in a few more years they will still have no relationship and will have lost the chance at a sibling bond.

a 13 yo is always going to be very self centred. I get that. And 4 year olds are kind of annoying when they sing the same song over and over or get upset because they can’t have any more bluey episodes or whatever. But they are both wonderful people. Funny and inquisitive and lively.

am I being ridiculous to ask the 13 yo to spend 10 minutes on each weekend day interacting with her sister? As simple as colouring with her? Or playing with her with some of her old toys?

the 4yo has learnt not to bother talking to her tbh as she just gets snarled at-but loves it when 13 yo has friends over who want to interact with her. 13 yo says that 4yo doesn’t like her….but the 4yo has never had 13 say anything nice to her or play with her, so she probably feels the same- even if she hasn’t said it. Because 11yo does act positively towards her she interacts with him and both enjoy it.

just for clarity- if the 4yo is being naughty or over the top annoying we always intervene. She’s not allowed in 13 yo room. She’s generally a good kid though! ( as is the 13 yo!)

I have tried my best to ensure 13 yo doesn’t feel jealous of her sister. 13 yo has own room. She has at least (usually more)an evening a week with each parent doing activities/ watching films. She spends 1 night a week at grandparents ( which she loves) just her and them. She does extra curricular clubs and recently requested tutoring, which I got for her. She has friends over and I would say is happy in her life.

I love both girls so much and would adore it if they could be friends. I think they could potentially get so much out of building a relationship.

I would never expect or ask 13 or 11 yo to do any parenting of her. They have never been asked to watch her or fix her food or dress her or anything like that. I want them to have a sibling relationship, not a parent/ child one.

is this futile? Is it useless to insist a 13 yo builds a relationship with her sister?

should I just settle for ignore her completely, just don’t be rude to her? Loads of people don’t like their siblings and it doesn’t matter.

should I wait this out and 13 yo will come round when she’s through this tricky stage of puberty? She’ll be nice to her when she’s maybe 15+….or is that too late?

Luck to a certain extent of course. But it’s likely that if there are large gaps, it’s hard to find common ground. Children at very different stages aren’t likely to enjoy the same activities, games, tv, films… they have very different needs, different routines… if they aren’t at the same school together they haven’t got that experience in common.

the OP said her 13 year old dd gets on fine with the 11 year old son, so it’s not a ‘her’ problem. She obviously just doesn’t want to be forced to do stuff with a 4 year old. The OP should absolutely stop any unkindness but she can’t force a relationship. There’s a chance things may change. But Realistically, the older dd is likely to be off to uni while the younger one is still at primary school so overall they’re not going to spend a big chunk of childhood together. I’m surprised the OP expected any different really with such a large gap

You could find out what they both like and use this to bring them together.

I’m going to be honest. Slightly bigger age gap but my brother was born when I was 13. I did love my brother and spending time with him, but I would never say it was a sibling relationship. My kids are 2 and 5, they watch some of the same shows, enjoy soft play together, play with doll and toys together and play games like hide and seek together. They have common interests. I always felt more of an auntie to my brother. I liked spending time with him but that didn’t mean I enjoyed in the night garden or kids toys. Even now, we aren’t hugely close (haven’t seen him for a couple of years) but he texts me fairly regularly. I still feel more of an auntie than a sibling.
Ironically I have Aunties and Uncles that are 3 years older than me and they feel more like siblings! We would go swimming together as kids and jump off the high dive, play with toys etc.
I wouldn’t force a relationship, you will cause resentment. Maybe you could get eldest to help with something like ‘elf on the shelf’ or arranging a santa visit. You have to respect that she is not a small child, will not want to play with her old toys, but may enjoy a more grown up role. I teach in a high school and even this week I had a kid in year 8 become an auntie, they were quite excited. I actually enjoyed (occasional) babysitting. Especially if you paid her and asked first. Would make her feel more grown up and she would have to spend time with her then. Not thinking a super long time, like if you popped to the supermarket.
Hopefully they will get on when they are older but I think a super close sibling relationship like with the 11 year old is unlikely.

my cousins are 8 years apart, a friend and her brother are 10 years apart. All are pretty much like only children, with no real relationship to their siblings. The age gap is just too big. We (older ones) are in our 40s now, younger siblings in 30s. Relationship is what you would expect from distant cousins, i.e. a text on birthdays, showing up for weddings etc.
Another friend has an 12 year younger sibling, and they have a parent - child relationship, but grew up in a chaotic household. So again, no sibling relationship.

I’m sure most teenagers do love theme parks, but does your daughter? They’re not a homogeneous group who all love the same thing. Have you ever asked her? I hated them because I don’t like rides or adrenaline. Plus a day at a theme park with a four year old in tow is obviously going to be a different proposition than going with you alone or with her mates; your attention will be on the younger child to stop her running off or getting lost, and it takes longer to get around in between rides because four year olds have little legs and can’t walk as fast or keep up. I can see that being a very frustrating day for a 13 year old when you break it down, can’t you?

Your 13yo doesn’t sound very nice tbh. Of course the gap means they won’t be pals at their ages although of course you would hope that would change when they are older but I wouldn’t be very impressed by your eldest’s interactions with her sister. You can’t force a relationship but you can make it clear that being unkind wont be tolerated. At 13 my eldest adored his 3yo sister (definitely more than he did his 8yo brother) which I guess might just have been luck but we have always been clear about the behaviour we expect from our kids.

I’m not sure we would ever have bonded, but there are some things that would have helped family harmony:

For me - not spending my whole life trying to get forgiveness from my sibling that I was there. My mum pandered to her, desperately trying not to upset her, often at my expense. I grew up walking on eggshells yet any time she upset me it was very much glossed over “She didn’t mean it,” “You know what she’s like,” “You’re not really upset, are you?”

Not trying to mould me to be the opposite of sibling’s mistakes. Anything my sibling did that my mother didn't like was then the subject of lectures as to how I was not to even contemplate doing such a thing.

Creating better friendships with parents of my friends. By the time I came along she had good friends who had children my sibling’s age and didn’t need more. This meant that occasions such as Christmas were spent with her friends, and sibling’s friends and I was on my own. It made me feel like I wasn’t important.

For my sibling:
Not using a young me as an excuse not to go to things. I told mum not to come to school plays and the like as she’d criticise and moan about them afterwards, and I felt compared them to my sister’s school productions. Turns out she’d rarely go to any as she “had” to stay and look after me. I’m really not sure that helped family relations.

Not having me at the house whenever she had friends over. I was a novelty in her group and her friends liked playing with me but I’m sure she hated the intrusion.

For both:
Listening to us when we wanted to do stuff separately from the other. I didn’t want to go to her graduation and I’m sure she didn’t want me there. I could have gone elsewhere but no, it had to be a family event. Likewise, I didn’t want her at mine but the same rule was applied which meant mine was spoilt by her throwing tantrums as she wasn’t the centre of attention. My mum’s need to show what a perfect family we were simply ensured we became less of one.

I wouldn’t have her talking nastily to her sister - you describe it as being “snarled at” and that wouldn’t be ok.

But other than that, I’d do nothing. Little children are annoying to lots of people. And I doubt any sibling relationship has ever been improved by one being told they must sit and play with the other.

@Purplekittenfurballyou say that if you’d ask your dd at 9 years old whether she’d want a baby sibling she’d have said yes. Tbh I think that statement is a bit irrelevant because you could well get the same response from many 9 year olds, it’s hypothetical scenario unless you go on to actually have a baby, and in no way a true measure of what the reality will be like.

you say you and your dh wanted another baby after a long gap with your first two children. But surely you would have understood that with this age gap, they wouldn’t experience early childhood together? By the time the youngest was walking, starting to talk etc your older ones were secondary school and top end of primary. I honestly can’t think of any games or activities which both age groups would genuinely be interested in. Not at home or on days out or holidays. They’re just very different stages and I think you’re unrealistic in expecting it to be different.

the 13 year old is fine with her 11 year old sibling which shows this isn’t just her being difficult - she is perfectly able to form a good sibling relationship but she doesn’t want to hang around with one who’s barely more than a toddler!

You absolutely should not accept unkindness. Insist on civil behaviour. But don’t try to force your older daughter to play with or do stuff with the younger one and for heavens sake never see her as a babysitter when she’s older.

Things could change in the future, though I think this would depend on whether they are geographically close when they’re both adult age and choose to make a connection. I think it’s going to be hard before then. In 5 years time, your older dd may be off to uni. Younger one will still be at primary school. By the time the older one graduates and is entering the world of work, the younger one will just be early secondary school. I think you need to accept that with the age gap you have, they’re not going to have much in common until they’re both adults, and whether they develop a relationship then will depend mostly on factors like where they live and how much they see each other at family events.

I don’t think anyone here is being harsh, just honest. You seem to be looking for something which is unlikely to happen, not because anyone is at fault but just because your age gap means they aren’t growing up together as little children/ tweens/teenagers.

Sorry OP, I can see why this would sadden you.

However I don’t really think there is anything you can do, beyond what you are. They’re both at totally different ages and stages of life. They’ll find common ground when they’re older most likely. Otherwise they both have a sibling relationship with their brother.

I can’t relate to this, my DC are so close with a big age gap and always have been. My young teen would go straight to his brothers when he got home from school and they would be excited for him to come home. Now some live at home and some have left and they all message each other every day.
My two aunts are best friends with a 10 year gap and my aunts 3 DC are mega close also with a massive age gap.

@Purplekittenfurball does she get one to one time with you?

all the examples are of family events which are always going to be dictated to by some extent the youngest family member

do you carve out individual time.

But also you had a third for you. As long as the 13 year old isn’t cruel or nasty you have to let this take its course

i have a 9 year age gap with my oldest siblings. We are very close now but I think that only happened when I was in my teens and they were an unexpected ally at times. But our Mum died when I was 7 and she felt a deep responsibility for us all.

My DSis is 8 years older than me - when I was a young child she found me pretty annoying but I was very adoring of her.

In retrospect I would say my parents expected her to look after me in situations where it stopped her being able to do thing she otherwise would have with friends which didn't help...

She left home for university the year I started secondary school so I felt very much like an only child then.

However...in adulthood we forged an incredibly close relationship.

I wouldn't force it, what will be will be.

FWIW I'm pretty sure our DDs would have had a very similar reaction to yours if they'd had a much younger sibling throughout their teens

Yes there will always be outliers - families where a much older sibling really enjoys being with a much younger one. And equally, there are families with children close in age who don’t get along.

But in general terms, if you choose to have another child after a very big gap, the chances are, they aren’t going to have much in common.

like the OP, I have 3 children, but with a 3.5 gap between eldest and youngest, they grew up as a little gang. It was easy to do activities and days out which they all enjoyed and where the youngest didn’t have to tag along with ‘older’ activities and the eldest didn’t get bored having to tag along with ‘younger’ activities. They enjoyed the same games, films etc for family evenings. They were all at primary school and then secondary school together so could talk about school, teachers, subjects, school friends etc When the eldest was looking at universities, their siblings were close behind. In short, they moved through each phase together.

of course there were squabbles - I’m not suggesting having small age gaps makes family like perfect. But it’s so much easier when the activities and stuff you can do as a family align. Thinking about what my children were like at age 4, they would have wanted completely different activities from a 13 year old. My children did have some much older cousins, and if they spent a day together, the novelty factor meant the older ones would do some colouring or read stories or do some role play games with them - but only because is was exactly that, a novelty. I’m pretty sure they’d have lost interest if it was a day to day thing.

They don’t have to have much in common to spend quality time together.

Big sister can spare 5 minutes to read The Gruffalo to little sister, before going to one of her evening clubs. An act of kindness. It doesn’t have to be her choice, her favourite book etc. It’s not wrong to learn to be sacrificial and kind to a 4 year old for 5 minutes. What a selfish generation we will raise otherwise. Of course, I would expect after doing this occasionally she would come to
enjoy it and their relationship to grow.

Hello. Just to add there's a 10 year age gap between my eldest sister and we are great friends now. Drive each other insane at times (I'm the youngest and got away with everything..still do) but she'd do anything to help me out and vice versa. I have zero recollection of her ever playing with me although i do rememver being very annoying! On the other hand I have a brother who is 2 years older than me and we have zero interest in each other...never have and never will.

Tbf, it is an absolutely huge age gap, they will have nothing in common/ shared interests.

As you say, it was your choice to have another child much later with a huge age gap. I have a younger sister who I never got on with in childhood as 7 years seemed a huge gap and we had nothing in common, she was just irritating. Got on great with my other sister who is only 2.5 years younger though.

As adults, your DCs may get on better, depending on their personalities. I get on better with my younger DSis now as the age gap is less noticeable and we turned out to have similar personalities in the end.

We cannot and should not force relationships though. If my parents had forced me to play with my younger DSis as a child it would have caused further damage for sure.

I have roughly the same age gaps as you but my children are younger (9, 7, 1 1/2). Our eldest two are expected to help out quite a bit; including playing with the little one. What I tend to do is say “right, I’ve got 3 jobs. Whoever comes first can choose first”. They always scramble to be the first to play with the little one. Yet if I ask them directly to play with her, they groan and grumble. So making that a choice Might be worth a shot? (I do the third job myself so the second child also gets a choice of sorts. The third job is usually one they’d never choose, like emptying the compost bin or hanging out the washing).

i wouldn’t ever advise making playing with a sibling a ‘job.’ Fair enough to expect everyone in the family to help out with things like laying the table and loading the dishwasher because that’s part of life, but playing with a sibling should be a choice.

I think @Summergardenis spot on: it was the OP and her Dh’s decision to have another baby knowing there would be a big gap, not the other siblings. As long as they aren’t unkind or rude, they should be given the choice how much they want to play.

FWIW when my children were in the 7-10 age range we had two family friends with kids of similar age who then decided to have a ‘late’ baby. They were both very honest about it that the first year was relatively easy with older kids at school and the baby being a novelty. Once the baby became a toddler, running about, noisy, needing constant watching and entertaining, family activities became really difficult. They got round it by one parent doing things with the older kids and the other doing different activities with the younger. They didn’t have the issues the OP does to be fair, the older kids weren’t unpleasant, but they were honest about how little connection and interaction there really was.

Obviously age gaps aren’t always planned and parents won’t get the ones they choose (although in the case of our friends, they did. They both had two close in age and then a last one years later.) But I think whether planned or not, it’s wise to be realistic about expectations. Children grow and change so much in those years. An older primary age child will have very different interests to a toddler and the gap probably won’t close until adulthood. In the OPs shoes I would adjust my expectations and accept that the children are not going to grow up together experiencing the same childhood things at the same time.

But it’s not a “job”, it’s a choice. That’s kind of the point. As a result of it being a choice, the kids now also choose to play with their little sister even when they are not asked to.

I’ve no idea whether it will still work out when our eldest is 13, of course.

You described it as a job so I’m quoting what you said! And whereas it’s fair enough to give a choice between, say, clearing the dinner plates or taking the rubbish out, I don’t think making playing with a sibling one of the choices is reasonable. The other jobs you describe are part and parcel of being a family - everyone eats, everyone produces rubbish. Playing with a one year old is something the other siblings should do if they want, not as an enforced ‘one of three options.’ Why not play with the baby yourself and let them alternate between the two actual chores which need doing? Playing is not a chore!

Thank you for your no doubt well intended advice but I’m not looking to change our dynamic. Rather to suggest a small change in what she’s already doing to the OP.

I have just no the more you push the more you will annoy 13 year old. As she grows up she might be nicer to her younger sister.

Wow. I’m not suggesting you change your family dynamic.

I just don’t think it’s going to be helpful to the OP whose 13 year old ignores or is unpleasant to the 4 year old to give her a ‘choice’ of playing with her sister or doing another ‘job.’ The OP absolutely should crack down on unpleasant behaviour but trying to force the older dd to play with the younger one will likely lead to resentment.

@PurplekittenfurballI think the best hope for things to improve would be to abandon the idea of fun days out doing joint activities - your children are just too far apart in age to have shared interests. I would do separate activities. As long as the teenager isn’t being unkind, let her be. You cannot force interaction.