13 year old has no relationship with 4 year old sister

[Purplekittenfurball]

my 13 barely has a relationship with her 4 year old sister. They also have an 11 year old brother.

13 yo is close to the 11 yo. 11 yo interacts with, is pleasant too, and has a positive relationship with the 4 yo. He will play a bit with her on occasion, engage her in conversation, do a puzzle with her (For example) or admire her dollies when she brings them over to him etc.

13 year old rarely speaks to the 4yo. The only occasions when she will is if she is asking her to stop doing something. In a disgusted or angry tone she will ask her “stop that” or “be quiet” or “cover your mouth”.

I am not expecting the 13 yo to have the same relationship with the 11yo and she has with the 4yo. They are naturally going to have very different interests, where the 13 yo and 11 yo have more in common at the moment. But I would love for them to have some kind of positive relationship. I worry that if they have nothing now- then in a few more years they will still have no relationship and will have lost the chance at a sibling bond.

a 13 yo is always going to be very self centred. I get that. And 4 year olds are kind of annoying when they sing the same song over and over or get upset because they can’t have any more bluey episodes or whatever. But they are both wonderful people. Funny and inquisitive and lively.

am I being ridiculous to ask the 13 yo to spend 10 minutes on each weekend day interacting with her sister? As simple as colouring with her? Or playing with her with some of her old toys?

the 4yo has learnt not to bother talking to her tbh as she just gets snarled at-but loves it when 13 yo has friends over who want to interact with her. 13 yo says that 4yo doesn’t like her….but the 4yo has never had 13 say anything nice to her or play with her, so she probably feels the same- even if she hasn’t said it. Because 11yo does act positively towards her she interacts with him and both enjoy it.

just for clarity- if the 4yo is being naughty or over the top annoying we always intervene. She’s not allowed in 13 yo room. She’s generally a good kid though! ( as is the 13 yo!)

I have tried my best to ensure 13 yo doesn’t feel jealous of her sister. 13 yo has own room. She has at least (usually more)an evening a week with each parent doing activities/ watching films. She spends 1 night a week at grandparents ( which she loves) just her and them. She does extra curricular clubs and recently requested tutoring, which I got for her. She has friends over and I would say is happy in her life.

I love both girls so much and would adore it if they could be friends. I think they could potentially get so much out of building a relationship.

I would never expect or ask 13 or 11 yo to do any parenting of her. They have never been asked to watch her or fix her food or dress her or anything like that. I want them to have a sibling relationship, not a parent/ child one.

is this futile? Is it useless to insist a 13 yo builds a relationship with her sister?

should I just settle for ignore her completely, just don’t be rude to her? Loads of people don’t like their siblings and it doesn’t matter.

should I wait this out and 13 yo will come round when she’s through this tricky stage of puberty? She’ll be nice to her when she’s maybe 15+….or is that too late?

I wouldn’t insist they older one plays with the younger one. What happens when you are playing with the younger 2? Does the eldest never join in the fun?

@Purplekittenfurball I have very similar family situation - Dd13, DS10, DD5.
What works for us is doing family things so we are all together having fun. So we always eat tea together (me and the kids anyway DH works long hours), with no tech or phones out, where we talk about the day and just generally hang out.
Friday nights/weekends we also do a film session together. The girls both like gymnastics and all three play cricket, so we do have some common interests we foster. But I dont force any of the children to spend time with others, unless its a specific activity we are all doing.
Dont get me wrong, the older two sometimes get frustrated and cross with their younger sister, but I find it is my middle son who is less interested!
Could you take both the girls out together to a cafe so its a treat the 13 year old might want to do, to build up some positive experiences with her little sister? We also have been to roller discos and trampoline parks as a family where they will all muck in together. The 13 year old does a lot with her friends, so she gets that escape and independence too, but I'm hoping she sees family time as her safe space and her 'gang' where her younger siblings look up to her.
Time will tell... and personality also plays a huge role of whether siblings gel or clash!

My sister is 9 years older than me. I have almost no memories of her ‘playing’ with me when I was little - I can’t think of a single one, actually! My brother (who is 7 years older than me) actually played with me and entertained me a lot, but my sister? Literally never. But by the time I got to about 9 or 10 and she was an adult, she made a big fuss of me, took me out to the cinema, bought me treats, helped me with art and craft projects, and was generally really good with me. We had a good relationship throughout my teens. We are very different people with totally different personalities and we don’t get on massively well as adults to be honest, but we have happy memories of my childhood once I was old enough to be a bit more ‘fun’ than a whinging four-year-old.

Don’t force this. Firstly, there is no reason why a teenager would enjoy hanging out with your 4-year-old any more than she’d enjoy the company of any other small child. Just because they’re related, that doesn’t make your small child fun or especially likeable for a teenager. Secondly, your 4-year-old (by sheer necessity because she’s 4) already gets more of your attention than your teenager. You might not think she does, but she definitely, definitely does - simply because she is little and needs/demands a lot more supervision and interaction than an older child. Don’t force your teenager to spend time adding to that attention when she is probably already (even if only subconsciously) very aware that the cute little youngest child is the already the centre of everyone else’s. You need to leave them be.

My siblings are all younger than me by quite a bit (the closest is 4 years younger). We were always at very different stages growing up. Eg when I went off to university the youngest ones were still at primary school.

We actually all get on well now as adults. Probably by the time they were in late teens.

You cannot force a relationship at all. There is a 10 and 9 year gap between me and my siblings and they disliked me very much. If my mum asked them to watch me, id get shouted at and pinched. Later on they admitted they were jealous and resentful of the baby! There is 1 year difference between them and they're still very close. I've been no contact with them for 20 years as they don't like me, not even a little bit! Leave your eldest alone and do not force any time together.

Even without the age gap, you cannot force relationships in this way. My three years older sister pretty much ignored me as soon as she hit secondary school. Some siblings get on, some don't. If you want yours to have a decent relationship when they are less dissimilar ages then leave well alone now.

Have you actually spoken to the 13yo and asked her feelings on the matter?
I would make an effort to have 1-2-1 with the 13 yo. Sounds like you do everything as a family? Spend some time with just her and show her she’s special and you might find she starts to behave better around the 4yo

I wouldn't force it at all as it's quite possible the deeper bonds will develop later and not even essential, predictable or possible to control whether they do or not.

DH is eldest of 4 siblings that are very close in age - 4.5 years between eldest and youngest and there was a miscarriage between siblings 3 and 4. The maths baffles me. Their reality is the aren't close and the 3 younger siblings periodically fall out. DH maintains a dignified and cautious approach and therefore gets on better with all of them.

I had one much older sibling and we always got on as far as I can recall. I don't remember how we got on when I was 4, but I have photos of us giggling together conspiratorially when I was very young. I thought he was marvellous and he called me his 'not so little, little sister' because I he was shorter than me when we were both adults.

There are no guarantees, but 13 is a tricky age and there is plenty of time to form a bond later

We have a bigger gap and ours all still get on.

I have made more of the responsibility and helping some of things than the being friends side really though. I understand not wanting them to feel put upon but I have always framed things as a team effort. The teens regularly babysit or get the younger one ready for bed, read a story, help with homework etc, they drop off or pick up from school and clubs/activities.

I absolutely wouldn't tolerate unkindness or meanest. Teens or not they need to be kind to younger children and take their fair share of family responsibilities.

This can happen with big age gaps especially when one kid is in their teens.

There's 8 years between me and my youngest brother and when I was between about 13 and 15 he basically didn't exist to me.

We're really close now. Forcing it won't help, they'll have whatever relationship they have and there's very little you can do about it.

It's really too large of a gap to have much in common. Don't force it. A relationship will come eventually. I have a similar gap with my sister and we've become closer now that she's an adult.

@Sandyshandy
thanks for your feedback. The family activities i mentioned were

we do activities as a family- walks, trips to theme parks/ zoos, swimming, trips that have interesting and engaging elements for all (like centre parks or family festivals)

do these really sound babyish for a 13 year old? Theme parks? Swimming? Festivals? Are these not things most 13 year olds like? Theme park is usually Thorpe park, as that’s closest- the place is crawling with teens! I never suggest things like soft play or cinema trips to see princess films etc as the older ones wouldn’t like it, so youngest goes with one parents whilst older two are out with friends/ with other parent/ at clubs etc. older two get taken out together and separately for activities they like that 4yo can’t do, like ice skating, climbing etc

could you suggest some family friendly non babyish ideas for me? As I’m stuck for ideas now!

Thanks you to the multiple people who gave their experience of the situation as adults who now have a relation ship of some kind with their much older/ younger sibling.

There are 2 types of people in this world people who love babies and small children and people who don't this may or may not change as she gets older. I have two older girls and one is like a 2nd mum to my youngest daughter the other one sees her as an annoyance. It is what it is.

Just go shopping together or out for a coffee? Art gallery, museum go to visit a different city. Go for a walk without the four year old so you can walk briskly? Go on a horse riding day together or hire some bikes? It’s the age when they start moving beyond the needing to be ‘entertained’ stage (they want to do fun stuff with their pals, not you) and into the stage of wanting your company (which is a sad stage but can also be lovely). I’ve never been to a theme park but I would guess that if she’s often been it’s starting to feel a bit babyish going with her family.

I think most 13 year olds, especially girls, will find most 4 year olds annoying, and they find a lot of things annoying at that age.

You can't force a relationship, but you can maybe explain to her a bit about being patient because her sister can't help being noisy and other things that young children are or do.

Why don’t you just do things together as a family? I have a 13 year old and a 7 year old. I would never expect they to ‘play together’ on a daily or near daily basis.

But we function as a family, so it’s pretty hard for them to have no relationship. We sit around the table and have dinner every night (sometimes eldest is at sports, but certainly every night they are both home, they eat together). And we do things together at the weekends - walks, bike rides, gardening, going to the beach, going to an event. It’s near impossible for them not to speak to each other. Your 13 year old is only as rude as you tolerate them being. I would absolutely not be putting up with rudeness and they absolutely would not be getting out of family time sulking in their room on their phone.

Do you know why the 13yr old thinks the 4 year old doesn't like her? I think it would be helpful to get to the bottom of this.

The fact that she's said it seems to indicate she is upset by this, and if she thought the 4 yr old did like her, they might get along.

This happened with my 2 DCs when they were 12 and 14. Suddenly I noticed they weren't getting along and both said the other didn't like them.

They were both hurt and protecting their feelings by not getting along.
They felt rejected by the other and didnt want to risk being nice because if they had a disagreement or row, it would feel like "What's the point, see they don't like me".

I talked to them both but in particular appealed to the older DC to see the younger DC's actions differently, not to take it so personally.

Dc2 is ND and we all learnt not to take her meltdowns or anxiety to heart.

I have three children with age gaps. They all have a good relationship. My middle was difficult as very self-centred and quite mean to youngest. Exactly the same behaviour you are describing from your 13 year old. I cracked down on it - imposed a consequence for speaking rudely or being mean - this included outbursts like “they are so annoying” etc. I explained that they did not have anyone being so hostile towards them at 4 years old and I would not have tolerated anyone being hostile towards them at the same age. I took away screen time, pocket money etc. I don’t think it’s acceptable to treat anyone badly and I don’t believe being a teenager excuses that behaviour. My three are now all really close. Also it’s irrelevant if you chose the age gap or not - they have a sibling with a big gap - though luck - that’s life. I would not necessarily enforce time spent together, however I would insist on basic respect including understanding that younger children can be annoying.

I edited to add that I also said if they waned the 4 years old to act the same age as them - I would start treating them the same age I.e early bedtime, same screentime and no trips out with friends without me being present. In order to have the benefits of being older they have to act appropriately.

@Purplekittenfurball I would try explaining to your eldest DD the situation as you have here. Sometimes, treating them like they're more mature than they are can really pay off, they rise to meet you.

Think about the wording to avoid any blame, there is a little bit of that in your OP. Explain to her, like you have to us, that you think it would make both their lives more fulfilling to have an additional positive sibling relationship, use the relationship she has with the eleven year old as an example.

If she shows some engagement with this or willingness to try, work together to come up with something that would help the relationship. Make sure you let her give some ideas first! Don't go in with '...and that's why I think you should spend ten minutes wash weekend playing with her'. Let your eldest express show she thinks they could bond best.

Avoid any demands on her because that can backfire.

Children who have a close age gap often don’t get on.

look how many books there are about sibling jealousy etc and posts about toddlers hitting the new baby.

siblings who are close in age often develop a better relationship when they are both if a similar age (eg 6 and 8) and both interested in the same things.

even then many parents will tell you there is endless bickering and falling in and out.

your eldest is 13. Some girls at that age love babies and small children and coo over them - but that’s not from a sibling point of view, that’s from a maternal point of view. They don’t see the baby/child as on a level with them at all.

your dd presumably doesn’t coo over babies and small children. She’s not going to build the normal sibling relationship where they bond through shared interests and activities because the 4 year old can’t or shouldn’t do the kind of stuff that’s age appropriate for her and she’s got no interest in 4 year old stuff anymore.

at 13 many children are starting to develop a fair bit of independence. They are probably going to school by themselves - walk, bus or cycle. Many will be starting to arrange their own social meetups in a local town with friends to get coffee and moo u around the shops. This sort of age is when many girls get interested in make up and skin care and spend time watching Korean influencers on YouTube.

my kids at 13 had a paintball party minimum age 12.
many children of this age are in guides/scouts/cadets and are doing weekends away camping/walking/etc without family.

They'll either work it out or they won't. There's no rule that says that siblings have to get on well, so I'd just leave them to get on with their lives. Hopefully they'll both develop good friendships, which will be the real value in their future lives - but, crucially, they'll choose the friends.

I think your DD13 sounds jealous of her young DSis because she’s a girl too. I’d speak to her and ask why she thinks her 4yr old sister doesn’t like her, just in case there’s a genuine reason she feels this rather than using this as an excuse not to play with her and to be mean to her. Then I’d point out calmly how unkind her behaviour is towards this small child and ask her how she’d feel if the ages were reversed and she was the victim of her older DSis’s meanness and dismissiveness.

As someone who had kids with a big age gap,it sounds perfectly normal.
A teenager will have zero stuff in common with a younger sibling.

I found don't do mixed days out.
The teenager will find the baby stuff boring.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel.
My 29 and 30 year old will often meet the 17 and 15 year old to go to football.
The 14 year old isn't interested in that.

My partner has 13 year old and a 5 year old and it’s sthe exact same. The only time they spend time is if my DD12 is there cause the will include the little one. If we ain’t there then the oldest is upstairs and youngest with my partner. Even on the youngests birthday we went out for the day and the eldest wasn’t happy the whole day, but was fine when we went out for hers. It is a big age gap and teens can be hardwork. Don’t get me wrong both lovely kids and very polite xx