French shopkeeper thinks English parenting is terrible

[Turquoiseforever]

Long one sorry, but I've included details to try and give an accurate picture!

Holidaying in France currently and have had a memorable incident in a shop today that has given me some food for thought, just interested in other people's thoughts on this.

Gave my oldest kids (3 & 6) €5 each to buy a souvenir of their choice at our local seaside town. Most shops turned out to be quite bougie and aimed at adults, but saw one which looked hopeful. Had an A-frame sign outside with a plastic colourful beach windmill on it, and a rack of children's clothes. Went in and quickly realised it was again full of very valuable things. At one end was a basket of handmade crocheted teddies, handmaid kids clothing, and some wooden toys. The kids took a look at the teddies, picked one up each then sat in two kids chairs holding them on their laps for a few minutes while I had a quick look round the shelves around them. We had a look at a few other things together, for full disclosure: when we entered my 3yo picked up a very delicate cup which I quickly set down and reminded her not to do. As we were leaving my 6yo very gently pointed out a necklace to me on a very flimsy stand that started to tip over, which I caught before it fell and set upright again. They looked at a few other things without incident or touching.

We didn't spend long, said merci and went on our way. About 10 mins later a lady from the shop approached us in the street and informed me my kids had broken two toys in her shop. We went back with her and found out that the rabbit teddies they had been holding had some very thin toothpick-like sticks of wood in each ear (to shape them a bit) which had been broken by my daughters twisting the ears, pretending to give them a 'hair style'. I had no idea at all they had been broken. Obviously this is my responsibility and error of judgement, and was totally correct to be brought to my attention.

However, the lady also subjected me to a rant about how French children would NEVER pick things up in a shop, they are taught "limits", whereas all summer she has had English, German etc children visiting and breaking things and being given "no limits" by their parents. Complained we had left the place a mess and her husband had to tidy behind us, because the teddies were placed back in the basket but not sat upright as previously displayed (I had set the chairs back carefully but admittedly been distracted from checking the basket).

I pushed back (calmly!) on her generalised critique of my parenting, and she said she has just lost patience after a summer full of similar experiences and essentially admitted this lecture wasn't personal. Still, it was pretty heavy handed to give in public in front of my children and other customers.

To be clear I know I made an error. We had been in a few quite breakable shops already which required heavy parenting, and I guess I saw an opportunity for a quick relief for us all. Normally I would supervise my children looking at anything handmade, so it was a lax moment, but I did think they were just wool and stuffing and wouldn't suffer at all from light playing. Also, typically I wouldn't take my children into these kind of shops. They have never broken anything in a shop before!

I just wonder how humbled I should be. Did I just catch this lady on a really bad day? Was she a bit racist? Are french children really that obedient all the time? Should I strike it off as a bad day and move on without too much thought, or do I take the criticism on board more strongly and accept I should be stricter with things like this and re-evaluate my parenting?! Do we really have much lower standards in the UK?

It's a shame, we've had a lovely holiday but now I feel like we're not that welcome here and have been judged/looked down on in general. Do we really have a terrible reputation in France?

Your kids behaved badly..they should not have been touching.

FFS😳😳😳🤣🤣🤣

I think people misunderstand the debate about "no", thinking that "no" is somehow not OK to say. What has been suggested is instead to say "stop", because it's much more clear about what the required action is. "No" is a reminder of the parent's position of authority per se, whereas "stop" is a clear instruction, supported by the assumption of the parent's authority (which has to be reinforced through repetition and modeling behaviour).

This is all "How to talk so kids will listen, how to listen so kids will talk" by Faber and Mazlish

Re: the OP's story, I think it was really courageous of the shopkeeper to approach OP and talk about it. It sounds like she was relatively reasonable about it and that she ceded some ground by acknowledging it wasn't personal and she had just had enough of this happening over the summer. Good on her I say.

But they don't say never say no, just suggest that if you remember to say "stop" instead, it can be easier to understand from the child's perspective.

I don’t think I said that it’s ok? I said it doesn’t sound like they behaved outrageously (in response to OP’s question). Stop being snarky.

Why is every bloody thing deemed as racist??? We can’t even breathe anymore without being accused of something. All this crap is destroying the way we live, here in England where I was born and raised. People are spending their waking lives worried they’re going to ‘offend’ somebody.
it’s a form of control.
it’s not our culture.
I’m sick of it.

Right, and this is the whole intention behind lots of philosophies lumped into 'gentle' approaches: to teach the child to be responsible for themself (e.g. Montessori), not because they have fear of the adult.

So these stories about well-behaved French 5 year olds that turn into naughty teenagers is just that: authoritarian parenting works when the child is in sight, and then they become rebellious because they haven't been taught to take responsibility for themselves, only to obey authority figures. Once the authority figures are gone, it's chaos.

It was unfortunate that the children damaged the items. They appeared to be toys, but they really were more display items if they could be damaged that easily. Really they shouldn’t have been allowed to hold them at all if there was no intention to purchase them.

I think this was more down to a misunderstanding on OP’s part and a lack of supervision which she admitted in her post. The shopkeeper wasn’t wrong to follow up regarding the broken toys, although she was rude to make judgement on their nationality. I find French people abrupt and rude, although I wouldn’t say that to someone and use it as a way to humiliate them in public. Both parties were wrong here.

People also tend to say "no" in an angry or in a wheedling way, whereas "stop" has than onomatopoeic quality of finality, where you don't need to adjust your tone so much to get it across.

I agree with this. We had 'exchange month' at school and the French kids made us Brits look like angels. They had every trick in the book up their sleeves.

She had had a titful at the fag end of the year and took it out on you OP. Ignore it. She is not suited to retail.

I have 2 jobs, both working with children.

In job A, the children are with one parent or both.
In job B, the children are just with me and a colleague.

Both include DC of similar ages and backgrounds.

In job A, they behave appallingly and in job B they are well behaved and nice to deal with. They behave awfully around their parents as they are unable to parent them.

IME the parents of today, not just Brits, the DC are different nationalities and cultures, are absolutely terrible. They have no boundaries, no control, haven’t taught their DC to respect anyone or listen. They talk to adults really rudely, they’re spoilt and indulged and then their behaviour is often chalked up to some “issue”.

This is my experience of working with DC over the past 6 years.

And were are reaping the ‘rewards’ of this in the workplace.

Another clueless parent just letting their children pick things up and play with them in shops.

Why was your child ‘twisting the teddy’s ears’ to make hairstyles?? How rude to do that to an item in a shop they weren’t even buying!! You don’t let your children sit and cuddle teddy’s on chairs in a valuable gift shop!

I am astounded at the things UK parents think are acceptable.
The shopkeeper is right, UK kids are feral in comparison to the majority of French children. It’s not the kids fault, it’s the useless parents.

Well I’m not sure we’d all be so accommodating if it was an English shop keeper who accused all French people of being terrible parents publicly.
The French have some lovely things about their culture but in my experience some people are also sadly often small minded xenophobic and openly racist - in a way that just wouldn’t be acceptable in the UK.

Shops are not play dates are they?

Why do parents think that they are.

It’s best to never let young children touch anything in a shop IMHO, I guess you’ve learnt that lesson, in french.

There are articles in France about the increasing bad behaviour in schools so it’s clearly not as if French children are all well behaved

but separately OP the way people bring up their dc is so different in different countries and yes I think here in the UK something has changed. For example:
In a restaurant if my dc were crying I would step outside with them until they calmed. If they were doing it out of petulance they would learn all that it would result in was being removed. If they wouldn’t stay seated I would take them outside to blow off steam or leave. I would not take them to venues above the level of behaviour they had mastered.

in a shop if they were bored and likely to touch things and it was a non essential visit I would leave. I wouldn’t put my desire to browse above the shop’s right to not have their stock messed with. When my youngest was little I remember going in to Space NK. She would quietly watch me and then VERY gently take the testers and apply to the back of her hand like me. I would hover like a hawk and commend her on how careful she was being. In other words I taught her. I parented her. She was extraordinarily gentle and careful and the staff would breathe a sigh of relief and tell me stories of children running their hands across from one side of the shadows to the other smearing it all whilst the parent was doing their own thing. If my dd was likely to do this I would not even go into the shop.

in a park if a child was being aggressive I would expect the parent to pack things up and leave. It’s teaching the dc that the wrong behaviours mean the activity is over. No second chances. This is how dc learn whereas I see parents drinking their coffee whilst their dc are being awful. They seem to think it’s their right to have a rest whereas in many other places the attitude is parenting never stops. It is never the parent’s right to take a break if the dc is being poorly behaved. This is how you parent. This is how they learn consequences Misbehaviour ends the fun. Immediately. They learn good behaviour = fun continues.

so many parents in the UK and some other places to be fair have changed the narrative into ‘they are dc, it’s normal that that misbehave. Anyone complaining doesn’t understand dc. The dc need to figure it out amongst themselves’ like sine sanctioned feral lord of the flies situation.

please don’t think this means they grow up like angels. That particular dd is now 18. An amazing young woman who is generous, respectful and passionate but also can be rude or entitled from time to time as any 18 year old can and I continue to parent by either ignoring if it’s just hormonal nonsense, speaking factually by suggesting there are better ways to communicate her displeasure or not facilitating whatever it is she is expecting as she was not approaching it with respect. Parenting doesn’t stop at their 18th birthday.

I have no idea. I was in Zara last week and there were children running round, pulling clothes, in and around the display rails. Too common.

Agree, also work with children. When I've experienced trips or visits with children, the majority will have little respect or manners, walk around like they own the place.
Just come back from holiday abroad & it stood out to me at restaurants observing families, which nationalities on the whole have better behaved children. That can sit at a table for a meal, even those young enough to still use a highchair, use a knife & fork, entertain themselves & not rely on a device. And parents engaging with them whilst not indulging them. (Guess what, generally it wasn't the Brits!!)

The shopkeeper was actually quite restrained as I bet her comments were directly aimed at you, op not British kids in general. When you said your children picked out teddies and sat playing with them I fully expected you to say that you purchased them. I was a bit aghast when they put them back. It sounds as though you were using the shop as a way of amusing your children while you shopped. Awful to have them sat playing with merchandise. That they damaged them is appalling. This is how that woman makes her living. No wonder she was angry.

I think you should suck it up, put it behind you and make sure your children are more mindful of how to behave in shops both at home and abroad.

I would have told her to stick her teddies up her arse.

Other people's merchandise are not toys for your children while you browse an expensive shop as a pastime.

I think the OP means she thinks the shopkeeper was Xenophobic rather than racist.

French shopkeeper is right (I say this as a British parent myself). I’m constantly wondering if my parenting is too harsh compared to other British parents. My 5 year old doesn’t let go of my hand in shops. She definitely doesn’t squeeze toys and twist their ears.
We were on a guided tour yesterday and these little shits were being noisy and disrespectful the whole time. My child would have been picked up and removed if she did that, and certainly not treated to an ice cream afterwards like those children.
Children are capable of learning how to be respectful from a young age. They just have to be told no once in a while.