My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

There's a causation correlation thing going on too. Kids who get Fortnite at a certain age are more likely to have a different style of parenting than kids who don't.

The content can be mindlessly adversarial and violent. There are much better choices out these.

If you’re applying age appropriate limits on screen time the choices are largely secondary. The way Roblox and Minecraft as games works makes that harder to do. The game is effectively never ending and progress becomes limited without expense. People assume they’re harmless. The reality here is that the game is not the issue. It’s the lack of age appropriate boundaries.

It's a pity you may need to do this, but you need to try to arrange a conference with school, and ahead of the meeting, send them information on Restraint Collapse. Frankly, they should be aware of this and its implications when a child is at an age where she should be able to self regulate.

Or seek a private diagnosis and then find support in managing her behaviour and helping her to manage her own.

Nintendo games are much different. They are often problem solving or cooperative. There's also much less violence or fear.

DS learnt to read with animal crossing during lockdown. It also had a lot of emphasis on feelings of the characters and how they expressed themselves. Given his lack of time with other kids, this was actually really useful because he learnt about interactions being positive. Even Mario has a storyline which on the whole is about helping and being friends and looking after each other in a way that other games perhaps don't. It's emotionally much more childlike.

Put DS on Minefield and even though it's still constructive, he can't cope with it. And there is still this element of killing the chickens and being chased by zombies (and fear of the zombies).

I dunno. I DO think time matters but I also think the type of game and content of game matters too.

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources/helpful-approaches-infographic/

Not saying your child has PDA but these strategies are very useful with demand avoidant behaviour generally. Can seem counter intuitive to give the child more control but it very often works.

Approaches you might like to try yourself:
Snack immediately after school, outside the school door.
Opportunity to run, climb, roll around on the grass, do gymnastics in a park or garden immediately after school.
Noise canceling earphones to be worn at the end of the school day when there's a transition from classroom to cloakroom, corridor, and exit to the natural light and outdoor temperature.
She could wear noise canceling headphones at home too.
Fidget toys, something to occupy hands - teach her to knit or crochet, or provide fidget items, kinetic sand, silly putty, spinners, pop toys..
Noise machine at night. Otherwise, the TV on low volume or radio / alexa playing music or rainstorm or tropical thunderstorm sounds might work. Sound on its own is probably preferable to visual stimulation.

The TV in her room shouldn't be seen as a privilege to be withdrawn as a sanction. It's really more of a tool that's beneficial to everyone.

Toss out all the sentences in your head that start with "She should..." Your DP needs to do this too.

She probably feels a lot of general anxiety if she has any form of neurodiversity (hence needing light in her room at night and the constant battles). Don't unwittingly escalate interactions to a place where she feels backed into a corner. She will not be able to think reasonably when she feels she's being confronted.

I urge you to seek a private diagnosis/ assessment if school digs their heels in. You and DP need to understand what you're dealing with and you need support and education in order to deal with her. You need to get this done before puberty strikes.

The phone and iPad in her room are not helpful.

Oh, it's my 9 year old DC.

Pro tip- go for an Autism assessment, not ADHD. ADHD is second port of call.

Oh OP this sounds so tough, there's some great communities on Facebook that have numerous resources. One called Neurodivergent Parenting Thinking Outside the Box (I think that's it 😅) is great for advice and techniques. Sarah Ockwell-Smith is also great for evidenced based advice too.

I know someone recommended Supernanny to you, I have to disagree that this would be a good source of information on this, her techniques aren't recommended for neurotypical children let alone children that are neurodivergent. And I would personally ignore the teacher and go to the GP, doesn't hurt to try!

I hope you get the appropriate support you need.

Sounds like Pathological Demand Avoidance to me, often people with ADHD are diagnosed with PDA too.
An unregulated, demand based environment is hell for someone with PDA, especially a child.

@RedToothBrush - agree.

Content / 'play value' are really important.

Sounds tough and I'm sorry you're going through this. My son didn't give a crap about stuff being taken away or naughty steps ect (going back twenty years ago when this was the advice)
One day during the school holidays I had enough, I literally emptied his bedroom of everything except his bed and a book. I said all the apologies in the world won't change this and I'd give it back when I decided that I could trust him to behave in a decent manner. I think it was around 2 weeks .. He became an angel after that.

I agree that the gaming platforms are rarely harmless in most modern guises. In the world of Autism and ADHD, it has a different place, it can be highly valuable.

I forgot about the Wii. This by far is the preferred gaming system for me. Interactive, sports games, all sorts of creative games including Mario Kart which is fab. You actually physically move your body engaging in games. I think more modern Nintendo systems exist that are similar.

@RedToothBrush a bit of a sweeping generalisation to suggest the parenting approach is a formulaic standard where Fortnite is introduced in the home. 😬

The number one issue for me to advise you to be super careful with OP is Snapchat. You won't even realise what's being presented. The ' For You' I think it's called can include all sorts of videos. Only fans models can and do promote under the guise of an innocent looking thumbnail. Location is easily found, messages disappear. Bullying can be rife and you can't evidence it with messages disappearing.

My neighbours 8 year old ds is the same. Wrong plate, didn't want his food cutting like that etc. He's been diagnosed with autism, adhd and asbergers. He's melatonin deficient too so doesn't sleep without meds. I can hear the running battles every day before and after school and all weekend (semi detached).

You need a diagnosis. Sending you a hug

TV, iPad and phone in room age 9 suggests she isn't getting social interaction which she probably really needs. If she really wants to use these and you are happy, I do think that ensuring it's in the main room should be on your radar. The problem with them in the bedroom is you can't monitor how much she is using. It sets up a bunch of habits which aren't necessarily healthy and potentially could become dangerous. Even being in the same room whilst she uses is still more social even if she's using a screen.

A echo the point about a sound machine to aid sleeping. DS has a great one with lots of different sounds which you can adjust to a noise you like.

I don't.

But I do appreciate that a lot of people won't like hearing that because of choices they've made too.

I've gamed for a long long time.

Different games absolutely have different cultures around them. It's really difficult to explain but its everything from who it's marketed to, the social following / community and the game content of a game.

She uses the phone/ipad downstairs with me in the room, she doesn't have them alone in her room. Just the tv for bed
The app I mentioned put on for her in the end to sleep lastnight was off my iPad, the app plays while it's locked so she had no access to actually go on there.

You've completely ignored/dismissed any and all comments on here.

You need to be willing to accept your part in this and start by fixing your own behaviour which is what will lead to a change in hers.

Yes she plays Roblox with me in the room and it is mostly that dress to impress her and her friends like to play.

I know a lot of people are saying about the tv in her room but to be honest if 20/30mins of a repeated tv programme helps her to be calm enough to sleep then I'm happy to let her watch it. I only took it off her lastnight out of pure frustration cos she was screaming for me to shut up when I was telling her it was time to get in to bed, on reflection I shouldn't have taken it off her, should have let her calm down, put it on and left the room she probably would have calmed down. But it's easier said than done when you're at a point of pure frustration and exhausted.

She doesn't have Snapchat. Most of Her friends do, I have told her she isn't having it as I can't monitor it. She can't download any apps without my consent as she doesn't know the App Store password. I will not be letting her have Snapchat any time soon.

@ThejoyofNC
I have not ignored any comments, it's a lot to catch up on. Just answering some as and when I get 2 mins.
When everyone is in bed and asleep and I get some time I will look through them properly and acknowledge them.

I try and give her as much 1-1 time as possible, she's a girly girl so I'll book for the 2 of is to get nails done, have an hour or 2 out shopping with her just the two of us on weekends

^

And it's like its never enough

^

She doesn't need this. She's not your friend. She's your child. She just needs time with you, not her bloody nails doing!

How about a Tonies box to listen to a story instead of watching TV? My 4 year old falls asleep to hers x

If the phone accidentally got lost but you're playing Roblox together, she'll get over that loss very fast.
^

This. Clearly

TVs are not pacifiers.

You have developed bad habits. This is part of the problem. And then when she kicks off, you cave. So she learns that if she kicks off enough you will eventually cave...