My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

I was literally giving an example of things she likes to do just the 2 of us as a treat. It's not a regular thing and yes she does enjoy it.
We do other things together daily, games/crafts/walks/park etc

I was giving one example and now everyone assumes I take her to get her nails done then ignore her the rest of the time

Now and again if it's just a day with me and her I will ask her what does she want to do/ where does she want to go and 9/10 it's something like nails/shopping/cinema
It's what she enjoys as a treat so what is the problem in that?

@VV12 why does she have a phone? If it's for contacting you while she's at her dad's, can you say she only has it on those weekends?

If the only time you spend with her is a treat and then her behaviour is out of control the rest of the time, then yes there's an issue.

No treats if her behaviour isnt up to it. Spend time doing boring stuff as much as the whole treat thing. Just having a conversation and watching TV with her.

Yes I do think repeats on TV in her room are a problem. She's isolating from you. Just being in the same room is important because it's those little interactions that are just as important as the big gestures and the fun times.

now everyone assumes I take her to get her nails done then ignore her the rest of the time

It's not the nails that makes me think that.

It's the over reliance on tech to regulate her behaviour that's the issue for me. If you do that then there's something not fully there in terms of human interaction and parenting.

You say It yourself 'whats the harm in using the TV for repeats to calm her down'. Well dopamine regulation using screens...

I feel for you, we're currently going through a similar situation but with our 5 year old son who we believe is adhd.

I do also have another son who's 4 and a daughter who is 12 and autistic and something that helps her sleep at night is having her alexia on "disney lullabys" even helps the boys, and it only plays for a short while so goes off hopefully once she's asleep? It's very relaxing.

Has this started recently? Or been like it long? Has anything changed at school/home for her? Is she being bullied?

Mayb try sit down with her and have a talk see how she's feeling and what she feels she needs that shes not getting?

Hi @VV12 - I’ve written a couple of posts on this thread already and also read through lots of the comments by experienced and wise mums on this thread.
you’ve asked for advice because your situation sounds hard with your 9 year old.
I believe you really want to improve this situation as it must be exhausting.
I can promise you that if you read all of it and follow the common themes (as most people
are saying the same thing) - she will improve.
It feels to me like you’re constantly justifying or making excuses for what’s happening.
If you’re working as hard as you are; have a baby, and she’s with her dad every other weekend - then your time will be limited.
anyway I’m sure everyone here wishes you well and I hope you read and take on board the advice and try some of it xx

@RedToothBrush

"If the only time you spend with her is a treat and then her behaviour is out of control the rest of the time, then yes there's an issue."

-I spend time with her every day even if it's a quick run in the park next to her school or playing/watching something together if my partner is feeding/bathing baby, apart from the odd occasion I have to work late, there is no issue with that.

"Yes I do think repeats on TV in her room are a problem. She's isolating from you."

-she has the tv for 20/30 mins when she gets in to bed, she only ever wants to watch the same programme/episode every night as it's just what she likes to listen to before going to sleep so how is that her isolating from me?

Hiya. So we have the exact same daughter. Mine is 10, but going on 17, so we have all the same stuff going on but added swearing and suicide threats, and a bit of violence chucked in for good measure. My family is not blended so no excuse there. Mine is also an angel at school. We occasionally film a meltdown for evidence. We have support from school who I wrote to asking for help and had a gp appointment (which she refused to attend) and they got us on to the local council mental health agencies waiting lists and started our camhs referral. She now has a 1 to 1 counsellor from the LA. No magic changes yet but hoping we're on the right path. My dh thinks it might be asd and we have spent a lot of time researching pda and lots of it makes a lot of sense about changing your approach to parenting. I don't think she has it but it's still really useful. There are excellent fb groups on it. My dd has two types of meltdown. One where she feels she has been wronged in some way. These are awful and we have to remove our other children as she turns on them as well. It takes hours for her to calm down and she is never remorseful after calming down. The other type is more anxiety driven. Homework/appearance/overtired/social issues. These are more tragic but less aggressive. I've had to do things like take her for a drive at midnight to break the misery.
Normal parenting rules do not apply when you have dc like ours. Ignore all the aggressive posts about removing all screens and demanding respect. It'll have no effect. The most important tip I could offer is to always remain calm. Even when things are completely mad and awful and be almost nonchalant about her unreasonableness. It de-escalates the situation much quicker.

Apologies for the lack of formatting and stream of consciousness. It's amazing how much it all pours out

@flowersWB have you found out what helps things with your DD yet?

Hi,

My son was the same growing up from the age of 4 years old until about 16.
The tantrums were exhausting mentally, he hated school as well so that didnt help. He would trash his room for hours, self harm (for attention), shout and be violent. We had to call the police on a couple of occasion.
He would follow us around for hours to carry on the argument. It was hell.
He was never diagnosed but fidgits a lot and struggled to concentrate on anything he didnt have an interest in.
He was punished all his childhood, but it never worked. He responded badly to most punishment and authority. For some children punishment is not the way.
I would say that mostly we had to pick our battles, communicate as best as possible and wait for him to grow out of it. He is now 19 years old and in an apprenticeship. He is mostly pleasant and nice to be around.
What I am trying to say is hold on, this shall pass.

Remaining completely calm and behaving as though she isn't completely crazy is the most helpful thing in the moment. Lots of nodding and non committal agreeing. I still remove stuff now and then but it never works

Ah this doesn't work for us ☹️
Although yes I believe it works better than getting mad etc
But it doesn't help what's happening
We have the same with consequences not working

She sounds not dissimilar to how my dd can be (diagnosed with asd)
Melatonin has been a bedtime game changer: we got it through the GP.
Now she's asleep by 9.15pm instead of 11.30pm

Hope you have a better bedtime tonight OP.

Hi OP. You sound like a good mum. Please speak to your daughter’s GP. If she does have ADHD your lives could
possibly be transformed with the right medication

@flowersWB yes you get it,you totally get it. That's PDA for sure. If you don't have a diagnosis, I imagine school is very difficult for her and she is masking to absolute capacity. That's why you have such extreme behaviour and suicide threats at home.

When school stress is removed, I noticed life is significantly better in all places.

We paid for a wonderful psychiatrist last week; expert in all this. ( The NHS are a lost cause now for us with waiting lists). She explains so brilliantly how so much ' unpleasant ' behaviour is a manifestation of stress and anxiety, particularly from spending a whole day in school trying to be ' normal ', trying to understand what the hell is going on and managing peers, all of it. It's like working three jobs in one day stress wise.

Life is better for us by going to school and saying here's the diagnosed conditions, can you let us know how you're supporting and accommodating that please. It's not easy and I appreciate NHS wait lists for assessment are so long. Not Vernon has cash for a private psychiatrist either.

We have Alexa in bed instead of a TV. Sometimes we get the laptop out if he can't sleep and ASMR videos help loads.

Sleep anxiety is a huge problem non comparable to parenting NT kids. Hugs to you fellow mum.

Ive managed to get her in to bed, usual programme on by 9.30 and sleeping by 9.45 which I know is still late for a school night but we had no proper meltdowns just a little wobble over wanting to come back downstairs for a hot chocolate after her bath, I just told her no as it was too late then just kept distracting her with a completely different conversation while she was getting out of the bath and in to pjs.

Thank you all for comments/advice I will take it all on board but some of the advice given on what I should do for bad behaviour I really have already tried, thousands of times and it just does not work for her, i could do the same things consistently for months and it still wouldn't click with her, this has been an ongoing problem since she was a toddler, she really does fear nothing and there is no getting through to her when she is in a meltdown.
I have taken the phone and iPad off her and have told her that she will only have them back when I think she is ready so there is no timeframe.

I think the best thing to do for both me and her is focusing on being 100% calm myself, I do manage to stay calm throughout the meltdowns I'd say 80% of the time but sometimes I do struggle with the things she says and her violent rages and I end up reacting then it all goes south, I obviously need to work on this and will obviously continue to spend has much 1to1 time with her as possible around work and baby, and also try and be a bit more positive with her after the meltdowns when I'm usually so annoyed that I struggle to snap back to being positive straight away.
Me and my partner have had a good chat together and have agreed with a plan going forward and that we both need to try our hardest to be more positive with her as much as possible.

I will be arranging a meeting with her head teacher as she suggested this morning so that I can talk things through with her more thorough and hopefully go from there regarding an assessment, I am willing to go private if things do not improve and the wait is stupidly long.

Sorry to hear you are going through the same, the added suicide threats must be awful and so upsetting for you 😔
Yes a calm approach is what I'm going to have to try although as you know easier said than done during a full blown meltdown.
My partner said today after his frustration last night that he's realised that he can't expect her to regulate her emotions when he can't control his own during the meltdowns, and it is true for the both of us.
I think from now on I'm going to just have to walk away, leave her to it and calm myself down for 5 minutes if I can feel myself about to react to it.

It's easy for other people to say to do this and that and to gain control when you have tried absolutely everything and it does not work with her like it would another child.

I really hope things start to improve for you, and that your daughter gets the right help 🤞🏻

Yes you're right, it's a minefield and you just don't realise what you've agreed to sometimes until it's too late!

I don't know if it's your intention to try and induce a sense of shame or inadequacy in parenting approaches by the language you carefully choose Redtooth. It tends not to be particularly helpful and just perpetuates that problem we have regarding good old mum bashing.

Context is quite important here. Your experience may work well for you. Graciousness in sharing approaches that work for you are often better received.

I'd say OP is absolutely meeting the ' good enough ' parent standard and a little tweak will help her achieve her aims.

Ditch the phone. 9 year olds don’t need phones. Lots of people need white noise to fall asleep, so agree on either the tv or a soundbox.
Ditch the threats and warnings. They escalate matters (speaking from experience). Hard as it is, when her behaviour starts to go downhill, remember she’s communicating something to you. Try to keep your cool, even if you have to say “I can feel myself getting angry, I’m stepping out now so that I can calm down so that we can work this out”.
Your partner needs to pipe down too. You’re a family. If he wouldn’t say it about his bio child, he shouldn’t say it about his step-daughter.
Focus on connection in the ordinary. Treat 121 time is fine, but you both need regular mundane connection time - find a routine that works. My 9yo needs a half hour to decompress after school (iPad creative games or practising her gymnastics with music on). Then we spend a short time together catching up on her day/me starting her off in her homework. Time together in her bed playing a game/reading.

And how did you get INTO the habit of putting the TV in her room to aid her sleep?

This actually matters.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to raise the point that she's slipped into bad habits and is relying on tech and thinking nothing of it because it's so normalised. That doesn't mean she's a bad parent.

It's stuff like light from screens that affects brains. So whilst white noise might be the right approach, a TV might not be the way to do it.

Plus there's creep from those games and that tech that comes earlier. If the TV is normalised in the bedroom then other things follow from that too early.

That's not to say no to games. It's doing games etc in a healthy way. Ditto phones. And there's a few things the OP is saying that might be more problematic for a kid who potentially has ADHD compared to her peers. So actually if there's a chance of ADHD you have to be even more careful about the tech.

There's little things in what's she's saying about the whys of the tech and the whens that are potentially more of an issue than the tech itself.

Honestly yes, I do think certain games lead to kids acting up more than others.

The OP has kept saying 'well what the problem with that?' whilst simultaneously the very point of the thread is to ask for feedback on how to deal with her daughter's challenging behaviour.

Maybe those little things, that she's dismissing, would help but because shes on the defensive saying 'whats the big deal?'. In a kid who is showing real issues like this, then consistency and being particularly mindful of the connection between Dopamine and the Reward System is relevant. Certain kids won't be affected but if you have a kid who is sensitive to it, it could be fuelling a downward spiral.

If you are that desperate as the OP seems in her initial post, then trying every opinion really should be your way forward rather than being instantly 'well what difference does it make?'.

Tech in bedroom at 9 is a big red flag here. It's going too fast. And yeah I'd be concerned about a child with a TV who has sleep issues and turns it on in the middle of the night just to normal TV and ends up seeing something inappropriate.

@VV12
Hmm. I still think it’s important to get to the stage with a child that you feel confident to say ‘no TV at bedtime’ and that instruction is followed. Otherwise the child is in charge and not you. Things are not going to get easier in terms of homework, independence skills unless you do feel like the one who has the authority.

Honestly, watch Supernanny. It tends to be a few weeks of hell - but eventually the child learns that they listen to
the adult. And you gain confidence.

Also this is very important. The social model of inclusion states that you should look at the environment and support in place before viewing the child as the barrier to progress, or finding ‘fault’ with the child.

I’m not denying ASD or ADHD, but there are many articles online about over-diagnosis - plus I have direct experience if a child almost being misdiagnosed with ASD.

To me, the huge elephant in the room, and thing I will be shot down for saying is - yes: I firmly believe that a label like ADHD is an adult term that we have invented to describe children who don’t fit an adult defined box of normality. I also firmly believe that some adults use the term ADHD to excuse parenting failures.

She’s telling you what she needs and you’re ignoring that. Of course she’s frustrated and overwhelmed. Listen to her, take time to understand her, and meet her needs.

Well done! Honestly it’s not easy if your child has ADHD or is somehow different to the norm. For starters you have people who deny the condition even exists. Just to add one thing that really helped me was lowering my expectation of MYSELF and approaching things with humour. My child does not respond to normal parenting techniques well and what works one day doesn’t work the next. That’s not my failure or hers - that’s ADHD and likely some personality. Both are fine. And I find if I approach a lot of her moods with humour it can diffuse the situation. But sometimes nothing works or sometimes I lose my cool. It’s ok. If I feel guilty about it I will simply tell her sorry later and ask how we could have handled that better.

I also really believe you don’t have to be in CONTROL of your daughter - you need to help her grow and mature into a decent human being able to look after her own needs and consider other people’s needs. That doesn’t mean I never say no or let my child run wild - quite the opposite as I tell her no not just because I have to control her but because she isn’t considering her own needs properly (staying up late eg) or my needs (buy me this - money doesn’t grow on trees sweetheart so no). But it means I don’t have to be constantly trying to micro manage every aspect of her life. It’s instead about her learning to be more in tune with herself and self regulate, have some resilience to life’s challenges, to interact with others with empathy and flourish as much as possible.

Involve the school and get a referral in with gp as honestly it takes years and don’t expect a magic bullet! My DD does not want medication and I respect her wishes. I think once secondary school comes she will change her mind and want to try it but again I’ll respect her wishes. But a lot has been me educating myself (the nhs course for adhd in my area was honestly rubbish but there is lots online) and thinking about what it is we are doing as parents. However I know some adults with adhd and medication has been a game changer! It is one of those conditions where the right medication truly can turn things around. I regularly explain this to my daughter but she has a strong sense of self and right now a tonne of friends and an understanding school so she feels no need to ‘change herself’ as she sees it.

Also to say your partner sounds lovely and the way you are juggling baby and DD sounds spot on.

ps there is an episode of super nanny on ADHD. She openly admits there that they are not the same to parent. Although personally super nanny was of its time and it does show in many episodes I think…