My daughter is out of control

[VV12]

Just spent the last 3 hours battling with my 9 year old daughter to go to bed, she still isn't sleeping.
It started with the wrong pyjama's, then there was too much toothpaste on her toothbrush, then she wanted the original pyjamas, then I told her no tv in bed because of the way she was speaking to me "shut up" "do this/that now" "your so mean" "your getting on my last nerve" "stop telling me what to do"
Then a whole other meltdown began because of the no tv which has resulted in a 3 hour screaming battle because she says she can't sleep without the tv, baby was woken up by the screaming, partner woke up, everyone's frustrated/upset and now she's laying in bed as calm as anything (but still awake) while I'm downstairs in absolute tears, wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration, baby just settled back down and partner telling me that I need to sort her behaviour out as he can't live with her anymore (he's not her dad)
I really don't know what to do anymore her behaviour is completely out of control.
I highly suspect she has some form of ADHD/ODD (it's in the family) not just from the behaviour but she just can't listen to any sort of instruction, can't keep still, talks non stop, fidgets a lot etc
I have tried speaking to the school but of course "shes an angel" in school and the teacher made me feel like the whole conversation was pointless and as if im just exaggerating and basically told me that the gp will be a waste of time as she's fine in school.
She is very good at masking her behaviour in school but every single morning is an absolute nightmare, can't get her out of bed, gives me attitude/ back chat the whole time she's getting ready, as soon as she steps foot in the car after school it's like the whole days frustration just comes pouring out of her.
Don't really know what I want out of this thread, I'm just at a loss, what the hell can I do with this behaviour?
Nothing bothers her, she don't care if I take things off her, she don't care if I shout/tell her off, she don't care if I stop her going anywhere, if I tell her to go to her room for a time out she just looks at me and says no so I physically have to pick her up and place her in her room, then she just throws herself around the room in a rage for ages, these meltdowns can last hours.
absolutely nothing works!

Is the tv on her room?
try something that plays quiet ambient sound if she needs noise?

shes also so 9, so let her choose her pyjamas and do her own toothbrush. Then let her go to her room and get in the bed.
tell her she doesn’t have to sleep but she doesn’t have to get into bed. Can you put on some audiobooks for her.

if the tv is in her room, take it out. It’s too much temptation.

This. Lots of children simply behave better at school because boundaries are much firmer and there is a consistent routine and structure, and expectations are clear.
Yes a very small minority may be 'masking' but it should not be the first assumption, it's much more likely that boundaries are looser at home.

Yep! Completely agree!!

OP she has a phone, iPad and room tv. she is constantly over stimulated when she is at home no wonder she can’t wind down. The recommendation is reducing blue light 2 hours before she goes to bed.

the whole routine needs to change.

You write this
she has been slowly starting to go to the local park with friends
as if you have no control over it…

So shes 9 hanging out in a park with unsupervised access to the internet….. 🙄

this whole thread is bizarre to the point I think it’s a wind up

just wanted to send some understanding as a parent of a girl who was not diagnosed with ADHD until 14 - from about 8 onwards we had a similarly rocky time! I tried all the parenting techniques and what I learnt was doubling down and consequences don’t work with children with these sorts of brains in the same way. I probably have ADHD myself (only twigged recently 😂) but didn’t know that then and would get sucked into arguments/ power struggles.

first, look at how you react and model behaviour. I took free anger management classes with the local council. Learning about zones of regulation since and being able to say I’m in red, I need some time out is really helpful for everyone.

secondly, get a referral to CAMHS. It may take years and several attempts but her getting diagnosis and meds was life changing (I should hasten to add before the pitchforks come out that her diagnosis was a shock one after school referrals for something else, and I was anti meds but she has since told me what a difference they made for her personally)

thirdly she’s telling you she needs that tv show on quiet in her room to sleep. Yes ideally she would not, but it’s where you are now and sounds like she’s not watching other shows. Could you record the tv show and have it play on loop on one of her non-screen devices if you really feel you need a compromise?

honestly I had to let so much go with my eldest (and later kids ND too) when she was in red then talk to her later and find out what was going on for her and explain the impact of her behaviour on me and others. She cares and loves you and is probably feeling displaced by younger sibling. Keep finding little ways to connect and don’t withdraw them as punishment. Honestly the teen years are rough but just keep showing love.

oh and learn about non violent resistance, that was game changing as a way of setting boundaries without it becoming a power struggle like most arguments are

my eldest is now fully grown, a great human with a good degree and career and we get on very well, so much better than I feared when she was that age.

best of luck and look after yourself, I know how awful it is and how much of a toll it takes on one

Does she read any books or do you read with her before going to sleep?

If you felt uncomfortable with her going without a phone she's too young to be going.
It sounds like you are letting her do/have quite a few things a lot of parents wouldn't. Most 9yr olds aren't allowed to the park with friends these days this is a more secondary aged thing. Same with the phone.

And if your response is, well all her friends are allowed etc.... Maybe she is in with the wrong crowd.

Melatonin could help with not sleeping.

I can't speak for the rest of it.

I have heard of children with ND conditions of having aggression at times but I didn't do that myself as a child so am sure what to advise in that sense sorry. I have ADHD myself but I wasn't a defiant child. That's not meant as an offence to anyone, I'm describing me only because I can't offer my perspective

If you suspect she is ND, go on the right to choose pathway (before it is obliterated by NHS england look up news) and get her diagnosed, if she is. Then hopefully meds will help regulate her.

I've since found out it's known as low demand parenting. It looks like permissiveness to an outsider (and can feel like that especially if you already parented other DCs) but essentially the important thing was always that DD saw I was on her side and trying to help her.

The key was not seeing her behaviour as naughty but trying to understand why.

I did a lot of reflection and listening between the lines, her communication wasn't always direct.

Some practical strategies:
Nudging (not making demands but "we're going to need to put this away now as dinner will be ready soon" "), not too many rules for the sake of it, they had to make sense to her, negotiating instead of demanding, clear instructions to avoid confusion and anxiety, don't interrupt when she was calm or in the flow with an activity unless absolutely necessary

A lot of adjusting my own expectations and "picking my battles" especially as she got older.

Pp with ASD often have a strong sense of justice and fairness, and I found if we argued and I lost my temper, I would apologise for losing my temper without blaming her.

How do you handle this? Because he doesn’t have to be her dad for her to know she must respect him - the same way she is able to respect her teachers. As an adult living in the house and as someone who is a parent figure (or at least is also responsible for her wellbeing) she absolutely does have to listen to him and he doesn’t need to be respected. I think pointing out the things he does for the family and making basic respect for him a non negotiable will actually make her a lot happier. If she sees it as a you and her vs you and him situation it won’t help.

I don't think that approach works anyway. At the end of the day confrontation is not nice and not going to get anyone to sleep.

Does she play with toys, does she make stuff, draw etc.

Remove the tv. Keep removing treats until she gets the message.

Keep those naughty step routines and stick to them. Be consistent.

Don't give her attention when she has tantrums.

Don't let "adhd" be an excuse.

You are very wrong. People do actually owe respect to every other person, that is what being civil is, basic respect for other people that allows everyone to rub along nicely together. This child being respectful to the adults in her life is the first thing to establish in this situation. All nice things she gets need to stop until she is able to speak respectfully to her mother and her partner.

You've got way too many screens going on here OP, she's only 9 years old. By all means let her listen to an audio book to go to sleep but watching tv is well known to cause poor sleep. She's far too young to have a phone.

I wouldn't have her hanging out alone at the park at 9, especially if she has ADHD and so is impulsive and doesn't always make good choices. Kids hanging out at the park with nothing really to do never leads to anything good IME. If she wants to see friends then have them round to yours.

She also doesn't need her nails done - it really sounds like you're treating her like a mini adult tbh. Going shopping shouldn't be what a nine year old child wants to do. Are you playing games with her? Reading to her? Making cakes with her? Things that aren't all about the superficial or adult world?

This child needs your time and patience. She needs you to be calm and consistent. She needs you to treat her like she's a child not a mini adult. She needs you to stop keeping her quiet/out your way with screen time or at the park. Parenting takes a lot of time and effort and that goes triple if you have a child that is ND.

With an ND child you need to pick your battles, sometimes just calmly saying 'that's rude please don't speak to me like that' and moving on is enough. You need to be modelling calm behaviour to her. She needs to feel listened to and respected and then she is much more likely to give that back to you. She is much more likely to do what you want if she likes you. She needs clear boundaries and consequences but these need to be calmly given and clearly explained in advance. Ideally she needs to have had clear structure and routine since she was little, it's much harder to put it in at an older age or to dial back on things she's been allowed too early.

I also think you have to remember she has had a random (to her) man move in with her and you have a new baby with him. These things will have a massive effect on her and mean she needs even more time to make sure she doesn't feel pushed out. I definitely wouldn't use time out as a punishment because you are effectively isolating her and telling her to stay away from you all. She desperately needs to feel part of things - you also need to make sure your partner is calm with her.

Are there any parenting courses you could go on OP? Especially ones for parents of kids with ADHD? I think you and dd could do with some help particularly as things only tend to get harder in the teenage years.

If I'd have kicked off like that over a TV, it'd have been in the bin in pieces. Sounds like it's time to start upping the consequences.

You could try and switch her to listening to books on Audible at night. My DC listens to the same author each night to fall asleep, he has listened to each book a hundred times or more now but it is set to play for 15 minutes and the reader's voice helps to lull him to sleep and it is much easier to get him to go to bed.

We've been doing this for 5 years now, the first year we listened together but I sat away from him and if he tried to talk, I'd say shhh I'm listening to the book.

If the TV is working for now, use it but try and switch to listening to an audio book the nights you have time to spend with her. It will help her vocabulary and comprehension as well.

Remember that this behaviour won't last forever. Try to turn things into a game rather than a shouting match. Hold your nerves and don't shout back, try to reply calmly or don't reply to the comments about you being mean. You could reply that your're her parent and it's your job to make sure she gets a good rest etc. Tell her because you love her you need to make sure she can get to sleep or whichever battle you're having.

Lots of hugs and a calm routine after school. Drink and snack before we talk much or tackle homework. Lots of reassurance and set family time. Don't get disheartened that the nice days out go wrong at the end, that's just the way it is.

Your partner's feelings are an added pressure for you whether you think he means it that way or not. Remind him that he took you as a pair and you are trying your best and need his support by holding the baby or giving you a cuddle after you've dealt with an outburst and to treat your daughter as if nothing has happened between them not holding her behaviour against her. She needs calm boundaries with lots of reassurance and there will be times when the tantrum happens no matter what but hopefully they will reduce.

There aren't any easy fixes with dc, whether it's a toddler tantrumming or a 9yr old.

You just need to do the same thing over and over. Consistency amd boundaries win in the end. Eventually.

At the first sign of bad behaviour remove her phone/any tech and any other privileges. You've got to let her see that you are the boss.

She behaves well at school, she can at home.

This.

Put an AirTag in her shoe, she doesn’t need a phone for this.

What we found with screens was going on it even for an hour after school would worsen our DC with AHDHs mood. Its like it heightened all his emotions which were already at breaking point after coping with school, and then when he came off screens he was much more likely to flare up quickly at small things. It might be worth trying stopping them during the week completely to see if it helps then having the 6pm limit at the weekend.
When we stopped it with ours we found a YouTube video (family blog style one but I can't remember the name) which was doing a 28 days screen free challenge, and we showed them that and made it into a "challenge" when first starting it talking about the positives the video had shown (with our own rule of having some time at the weekend still). It avoided it seeming like a punishment and I think showed them what we were trying to achieve rather than them just feeling we were being mean.

The audio book sounds like it might be a positive bedtime option going forwards.

No way would I put up with that! It would never have started! Too many gadgets and too much control. It is all your own fault for raising a spoilt child. Wait until she is 15 and you will regret allowing it to happen. It's all on you! Go back to basics. No TV. No electronics. No pocket money. No phone. It will soon change. Don't be a wet blanket.

She is almost certainly not fine at school, though I know how hard it is to get school to see that as they never believed me about my daughter at home until she had a meltdown at school. That was in year 2 and now she's in year 4 with an ASD diagnosis and a lot more support and is doing much better. A good educational psychologist should be able to see through the masking, though you may have to fight or pay to get an assessment if school aren't on board.
The other thing we learnt is that she genuinely isn't in control and has very little memory of her behaviour during meltdowns, and the trick is to stop her getting to that state. Mostly this is by lots of opportunities for regulation and desired sensory input, but I do reduce demands after school as she still finds it draining.

Can't you see why she is behaving like that? And what Family lives are supposed to do? A new 'dad', a new baby, a new life - where does she fit in it all?

Get her a radio or a story box thing. No screens in bed.

shes 9…. Getting her nails done is not a child’s activity, she’s trying to be like you. Or you’re not getting that she’s a child not a friend. Take her to softplay with friends or
horse riding etc.