Child faffing around/not paying any attention at clubs he wants to be at

[Losingthewillnow]

Hi

My daughter is 8 (yr 4) and I’m at my wits end, in particular with the way she acts in clubs.

She’s always been one to struggle with attention span, and I’ve always been happy enough to go along with the “she’s just young”.

School says she daydreams and needs to be kept on task but behaves well. Academically she’s no concern at all to the school, but personally I think she’s capable of much more just doesn’t have the focus (this isn’t meant as a stealth boast, I know she’s academically bright but without the focus/drive it evens out to average and that’s fine).

At home, she’s generally ok as she has some choice in what to do but still does have the occasional tantrum and quite often refuses to do homework.

The clubs she goes to and I stay are a disaster and she is definitely the worst behaved in both (football and swimming) and just mucks around the entire time. In football she’ll be doing karate kicks and rolling on the floor, swimming she’s constantly bobbing under the water and seems to try to pipe up with totally inappropriate remarks to try to be funny. She misses the instructions and is always clueless as to what she is meant to be doing. In the past, she was often in groups with older kids so I assumed it was just an age thing and she’d get better but it doesn’t seem to be the case at all. For Brownies, I don’t stay but have been collared by the leader about her lack of listening and her being a distraction to others.

These three clubs are ones that she enjoys and wants to go to, and afterwards she always says so genuinely that she thinks she concentrated well (with swimming and football she knows I’ve been watching) and gets upset if I say she didn’t.

I’m at a loss because I don’t know how to help. My daughter wants to be at the clubs but as time goes on she’s starting to become a bit of a nuisance when others want to actually concentrate and try. I’m the embarrassed parent of the kid that doesn’t do what they are told and disturbs others.

I’ve tried explaining that if she doesn’t listen she’ll get left behind (she’s most often a sub in football games because she’s a liability to the team, with swimming other kids are passing the stages much quicker because they do as they are asked, in school she’s dropped from “exceeding” to “meets”) and that the general silliness will not be tolerated for long by her classmates who all seem to be growing up a lot already.

I’ve tried bribery, which doesn’t work either because she’s adamant that she has behaved well when she hasn’t (and the emotional reaction she has does make me think that it is her genuine thought, because the bribery isn’t only some sweets etc. as a reward).

I really don’t want to cut ties with the clubs, but this seems like my last option! Football might be a possibility to pick up again later, but swimming and Brownies have huge waiting lists and if I give up the spaces they won’t be an option in the future.

Any advice or sharing of similar experiences would be appreciated. I’m just at a loss how to approach this because it’s not getting better with time.

edit - as is typical, I’ve noticed a typo in the title that can’t be changed. Daughter is obviously a she not he and I just don’t check my typing.

My son is a bit like this, have just started thinking about possible assessments so reading the advice with interest. He's just started a musical instrument which has actually gone better than I expected, I think because at beginner level just a small burst of practice each day makes a difference and he can see himself progressing without having to concentrate for hours at a time.
Just in case you want an idea for a different activity to try.

Gosh @OhBling your post has just made me realise that DS's lack of eye contact is probably why coaches don't connect to him until they focus on him! He's so so lovely but the lack of eye contact probably reads differently (in contrast to my other DS/DD who greets everyone with a huge smile & eye contact which seems to make people automatically attribute positive things to them! I'm not good at eye contact either ...)

So I should unsubscribe her from the things I know she enjoys because someone on the internet says she can’t possibly enjoy them because she struggles to pay attention?

She absolutely does want to be there, that’s for certain.

Should I also unsubscribe her from school, getting dressed, conversations and eating because she also finds it hard to stay on task with those? Should I be allowing her to just sit at home and flit aimlessly all of the time?

I think it goes beyond eye contact, but yes. I think a lot of children don't shine in these environments but, when paid attention, they blossom. Good teachers and coaches will see and identify this. But you can help things along sometimes with a casual prompt or reference. For me it might be things like mentioning to the coach how much DS loved the training sessions or sometimes attempting to get teachers to see him as more than just what he is in class by telling them something small but specific. I tried not to bang on on the basis that was counter productive, but even DS sees how it helps now. After his last parent-teacher evening (at his school children attend), he had come home annoyed about my conversations with the teachers and was even more annoyed the next day when his form tutor said somethign to him like, "oh, your mum is lovely and really supporive of you isn't she?". But he did come back to me a couple of days later and say that maybe he'd been a bit hasty as things with all of his teachers were a bit better after the parent-teacher sessions!

@Losingthewillnow

I agree with the ADHD diagnosis. Address this now as the reduction in attainment and lack of concentration will not help her at all in high school and it will become a problem. Sorry your primary school isn't addressing the issue. Your GP can refer but also try and push for the Ed Pysch at school to carry out a review.

Oooh, music hadn’t even crossed my mind but I’d be willing to give it a try because the lesson style (generally 1:1) would suit her. I’ll have to investigate what instruments might work and have local teachers and prepare the wallet for the insane cost of lessons if she likes it.

Drums are great for students that struggle to focus as it doesn't rely on having to learn to read music and that type of theory.

Using both hands and feet are great too as it really helps stimulate the brain.

Mine also has AuDHD and her focus is a lot like you describe. She can concentrate or she can look like she's concentrating, but she can't do both! Lots of jumping around, rolling on the floor, fidgeting, blurting out what's at the top of her mind regardless of whether it's on topic. Swimming was a disaster as she couldn't process what was being said in the loud environment and kept splashing - in the end we did 1:1 lessons which worked far better for her.

If I were in your position and had unlimited time and funds I would

• get the ball rolling for an ADHD assessment
• assume ADHD and use some of those techniques because if she is NT then it won't hurt and if she has ADHD it will help
• go for an Occupational Therapy assessment and ask them to assess her for sensory processing - what you describe with her rolling on the floor and doing karate kicks sounds a lot like sensory seeking for proprioceptive input. Ask the OT for a "sensory diet" which is a set of individualised physical exercises to do which have a regulating and calming effect. My DD does her sensory diet three times a day at school so that she can actually focus during the lessons.
• See a speech and language therapist who is qualified to assess for auditory processing disorder - you say she's missing instructions a lot and this is really common with autism / ADHD.
• Speak to the coaches and leaders to ask if they think your daughter is unusually active or inattentive and if they would be willing to support an ADHD assessment with a short note to that effect.
• Have a look at ADDitude for suggestions on strategies https://www.additudemag.com/category/parenting-adhd-kids/

If I had to pick only one of them to pay for it would be the OT assessment. Because you can then take that to the school and to the GP to pursue an NHS ADHD referral and to get the school to put a little extra support in for her. As PP have said, they should be concerned that she is dropping from exceeding to meeting given they have flagged daydreaming before.

That’s really helpful, thank you.

We’re definitely prepared to pay to get a ball rolling, or to hear that a professional’s opinion is that it’s just misbehaviour.

I’ll look into the OT route and see if I can find anything local to us and get in touch.

We had a fantastically detailed report from Seirrah https://www.seirrah-ot.co.uk highlighting issues we'd never even considered, on the off chance that you can get there.

I don’t think you should, no. Because ultimately she needs to learn to behave appropriately and unsubscribing her won’t do that.
I think this needs a coordinated response with the adults responsible for her. I would bet my bottom dime there is nothing wrong with this kid other than immaturity, which can be worked on and the fact you are worried shows you are a good mum. She isn’t a mean kid disrupting things because she can or to hurt anyone.

Teacher here.

My guess is auditory processing and/or working memory problems.

Either she has a physical hearing problem which prevents her from actually hearing instructions OR she hears instructions but they are not processed properly and they don't get loaded into working memory.

Either way you need an expert opinion/assessment. Speak to school SENDCO. They will help.

That was my thought - by removing her from clubs she would be likely to get further “behind” maturity wise. Whilst I don’t want her to get bullied, it would be better for her behaviour to be called out by other kids in these settings that in a school setting.

I think she fits the mould (within reason) at school and does what is expected because of the clear expectations set by the teacher/school and that teachers who see kids 30 hours a week adapt teaching methods to suit them. In the clubs (1 hour a week) there isn’t the same understanding of each child, but more so there is less structure and the instructors are quite “nicey nicey” and she cannot read the undertone to what they say - if they are not super obviously cross she doesn’t seem to comprehend that they aren’t happy!

Thank you.

We’ve had her ears checked a couple of times over the years (this has been ongoing) and her hearing is fine.

It could be to do with auditory processing so I’ll look into that.

In your experience, is it as simple as asking to speak with the SENCO to set up an appointment? I feel like there is a level of gatekeeping, where each teacher is just accepting her as “problems focussing” but without considering if there’s anything that can be done to help. Only one teacher has proactively moved her seat to somewhere she can easily be subtly reminded to focus with a shoulder tap.

I appreciate teachers have 30 in a class, but if they can’t always be proactive to keep her on task it would be very helpful if someone with a child centric background could help with strategies for us to work on generally (even is there is no SEN in play, she is being impacted). I don’t know if this would be a SENCO or not.

Yes. First port of call will be the SENDCO. I've been teaching for nearly 30 years and still haven't met a horrible SENDCO. (Have met loads of stressed and under resourced SENDCO'S, but never a horrible one!)

I'd probably just e-mail them and say that you have noticed some behaviour changes in your daughter and needed some advice about how to support. You could also ask if teachers have noticed any changes or difficulties. Remember to mention the difference you noticed between written and verbal instructions.

Remember that there could be ANY reason for your daughter's behaviour - from hearing impairment to autism, trauma and beyond. It's way too early to say without expert assessment from someone like an Educational Psychologist (SENDCO will put you in contact.)

Also you WILL have to be honest about your home situation/parenting if you want to find a solution. I have lost track of the number of parents who are convinced that their child's behaviour is down to some diagnosable syndrome when actually granny died/dad died/pet died/mum and dad divorced/uncle is an abuser/dad's an alcoholic etc

Good luck in finding a solution. Teachers are here to help. We are not all bad, ya know!!!

Thank you again. I definitely am not blaming the teachers here, even the ones that have brushed the distractedness off, because I know classes now have such high level of needs that one child who is doing acceptably and not causing a fuss isn’t top priority in the grand scheme. Obviously as a parent I have eyes for my daughter who seems to be floundering, and I’d like to help BEFORE she hits the underwater point.

I’ll ask to speak with the SENCO, who I believe will be my daughters teacher next year, with my concerns. She seems lovely from what I’ve heard.

In our case there’s not so much a change in behaviour but an exacerbation of previous behaviour. We’ve always assumed she was just “young for her age” in the way she acts, but instead of the gap reducing over time it’s definitely increasing (in clubs, I’d compare my 8 year old daughters behaviour/actions to those of the 4/5 year olds in terms of the lack of attention and instruction following without copying others). I keep telling myself she’s young and it will get better, but it does now seem to have hit a point where it will become a bigger issue as an 8 year old is reasonably expected to act in a different way!

I’m happy to be open about our family life, but again there’s not much to report in honesty. Stable two parent household with no financial worries, and limited changes over the years (we moved house a few years ago and got a dog, that she loves, last summer). Whilst I’d be surprised if any of that was relevant, I’d be happy for our own treatment of her was looked at with a fine tooth comb because if we’re contributing to the problem with what we see as help I’d like to change things.

Oh how I would love to just be a fly on the wall in her classroom for a day, so I could see for myself how she was there!

Following this thread with interest as I have a 6yr DD who really struggles to focus (or at least look like she’s focusing) in clubs. Like yours she’s bright and no trouble in school (loves a rule) and the school have reported no issues. But home and at clubs it’s clear to see she struggles in places and focus is one of them! Luckily her coaches are really kind and it doesn’t seem to bother them but god do I cringe on the sideline while someone is trying to give her one to one direction/feedback and she’s spinning around, rolling, looking at the sky. (We’re not in the UK so currently just taking a wait and see approach before speaking to the school and her doctor)

OP - I think you're doing the right thing. You're noticing some things that are slightly concerning, but you're not jumpping to conclusions. You are starting to think about what support and additional information you need.

When you talk to the SENCO, I'd also be very clear to add that you think your dd's change in academic success is relevant and a concern. If she's dropped to "meeting" expectations, is she going to drop further?

You also need to be prepared for the fact that if there is ND, it often presents differently in girls and this can make it really difficult. There is lots of work being done to help girls and identify them earlier, but this work is still in its infancy.

I think you said you are planning to see if you can track down an OT for assessment, I think that's a great first option. An educational psychologist is also a good choice but perhaps in a year or so when you can see more clearly any differentials between her and her peers.

I also think its quite common for the real challenges to only become apparent at around this age. I remember our head teacher telling us years ago that she is very unwilling to compare children to each other or against their cohort until they are at least 8 as there is just so much variety, but it becomes a bit more standardised after that. Certainly, my concerns about DS were largely brushed off as "he'll grow out of it" in KS1, but it was only as we were well into KS2 that people started taking me seriously. I have a friend whose DD has quite significant additional needs - obvious from a relatively young age. But nonetheless, it was only really as she got to about 8 that the full scale become clear. My point being that even with a child whose ND is fairly significantly impactful, it might be immediately obvious, so it's completely normal for you to only be at the very start of a journey to figure out if your DD does need extra support.

Good luck. She obviously has a supportive and proactive mum and she sounds like a lovely child - I think you'll find your way through this.

Thank you.

With the dropping from exceeding to meet, I’m conscious that a drop from just achieving exceeding to at the top of meeting isn’t really very big at all which is why I haven’t asked too much, but if she’s the way she is in classes that she is in clubs I’m getting more concerned that she might actually be slowly going down in the meets bracket. I’ll need to specifically ask about this and not be too fobbed off - I’m not doing it because I’m complaining she’s not exceeding, but concerned that she’s potentially falling g back a long way before she hits the red flag for not meeting.

As you say, hopefully this is about the age when they do start looking at whether children are acting appropriately and stop with the “they’ll get there” attitude being the standard response.

I’ll be looking to speak with the school shortly, hopefully getting a chat with the SENDCO especially if her teacher brushes me off too quickly without any reasoning.

This is us exactly! She may have been flailing around like an idiot looking like she’s paying no attention but can then quite often repeat what has been said verbatim when you call her out on it (or can’t remember a thing if she was sitting down).

I’m going to push the school for more information about how she is there, at the very least putting it very much in their mind which might make them see things they would otherwise have missed.

I do expect she follows the rules there for the most part.

Regardless of whether your DD has some form or neurodivergence or is just lacking maturing, I would avoid team sports and in my experience football is about the worst for the kids on the teams taking it incredibly seriously and handling it well when others are not as good.

I'm a leader in scouting and I think brownies/cubs etc is really good for those children who enjoy activities but don't necessarily excel at any one thing. The children learn loads of really good skills but as each session involves something different it's not as obvious to all the children if one person does not 'get' it as quickly as the others. It's also a great chance for children who don't necessarily find it easy to make friends to get to know a few people without the pressure of school or a team sport. I've been told by parents of ND children that being in cubs/scouts has actually given them skills and confidence that has made a difference to how they behave at school and at home. I've helped children similar to your DD in our sessions and I'd reiterate what a pp said about speaking to the leaders about her behaviours and what you find works/doesn't work etc. I'd also consider whether the particular group she's in offers activities that play to her strengths. I know in my area that most of the brownie packs do a lot of indoor activities with a lot of sitting, listening, talking, craft, writing etc whereas our cubs do a lot more outdoor/energetic activities. We work quite closely with the local brownies/guides and do sometimes suggest to parents that their child might prefer the other approach.

My AuDHD DD does pretty well in a girls' football team but the founder has an ASD daughter of his own so that probably helps.

She's certainly done well in individual things like swimming, climbing, cycling etc.

She was exactly like the OP's child at 8! I had to remove her from many group things. We had some success with yoga (leader has ADHD) and cooking (leader has ADHD).

There's a pattern emerging there!

I didn't seek out those activities knowing the leader was neurodiverse. They were just the ones that worked and I found out after.

She also enjoys music theatre and when I described her to them before signing up they chuckled and said "we have all the kids like that..."

Sounds just like my daughter who has ADHD. DD is also very bright and excelling at school, but we have a family history of ADHD so I noticed the signs and it was enough for a diagnosis.

It’s lovely to hear from all of the Scout/Brownies leader who all echo the same sentiment, and I definitely agree that the variety of activities means there’s less pressure to be the best at anything as it’s only one sessions for team things. I’m really hoping we can get Brownies to stick and I’ll be speaking to the leader about her difficulties and how she copes best.

I also totally agree with football not being the best, and I’d not support her joining another team sport based on this. The session she goes to is a development one (with a very, very occasional friendly match) so the best players have already been pulled out into a team, but there’s still teams each week when they end the practice with matches. I think she ages out of this at the end of the school year, so at this point if she still wants to go I will let her until she can’t as they give the remaining Y4 girls a nice send off which I think will be easier for her than stopping her going mid year.