Child faffing around/not paying any attention at clubs he wants to be at

[Losingthewillnow]

Hi

My daughter is 8 (yr 4) and I’m at my wits end, in particular with the way she acts in clubs.

She’s always been one to struggle with attention span, and I’ve always been happy enough to go along with the “she’s just young”.

School says she daydreams and needs to be kept on task but behaves well. Academically she’s no concern at all to the school, but personally I think she’s capable of much more just doesn’t have the focus (this isn’t meant as a stealth boast, I know she’s academically bright but without the focus/drive it evens out to average and that’s fine).

At home, she’s generally ok as she has some choice in what to do but still does have the occasional tantrum and quite often refuses to do homework.

The clubs she goes to and I stay are a disaster and she is definitely the worst behaved in both (football and swimming) and just mucks around the entire time. In football she’ll be doing karate kicks and rolling on the floor, swimming she’s constantly bobbing under the water and seems to try to pipe up with totally inappropriate remarks to try to be funny. She misses the instructions and is always clueless as to what she is meant to be doing. In the past, she was often in groups with older kids so I assumed it was just an age thing and she’d get better but it doesn’t seem to be the case at all. For Brownies, I don’t stay but have been collared by the leader about her lack of listening and her being a distraction to others.

These three clubs are ones that she enjoys and wants to go to, and afterwards she always says so genuinely that she thinks she concentrated well (with swimming and football she knows I’ve been watching) and gets upset if I say she didn’t.

I’m at a loss because I don’t know how to help. My daughter wants to be at the clubs but as time goes on she’s starting to become a bit of a nuisance when others want to actually concentrate and try. I’m the embarrassed parent of the kid that doesn’t do what they are told and disturbs others.

I’ve tried explaining that if she doesn’t listen she’ll get left behind (she’s most often a sub in football games because she’s a liability to the team, with swimming other kids are passing the stages much quicker because they do as they are asked, in school she’s dropped from “exceeding” to “meets”) and that the general silliness will not be tolerated for long by her classmates who all seem to be growing up a lot already.

I’ve tried bribery, which doesn’t work either because she’s adamant that she has behaved well when she hasn’t (and the emotional reaction she has does make me think that it is her genuine thought, because the bribery isn’t only some sweets etc. as a reward).

I really don’t want to cut ties with the clubs, but this seems like my last option! Football might be a possibility to pick up again later, but swimming and Brownies have huge waiting lists and if I give up the spaces they won’t be an option in the future.

Any advice or sharing of similar experiences would be appreciated. I’m just at a loss how to approach this because it’s not getting better with time.

edit - as is typical, I’ve noticed a typo in the title that can’t be changed. Daughter is obviously a she not he and I just don’t check my typing.

Cause and effect though, if she is ND then her executive functioning is likely that of a younger child so she might NEED to be 'babied' so she can navigate simple tasks that other DC find much easier.

We try and give DD tools (lists, reward charts, mnemonics) but she still needs more support.

Girls adhd presents differently to boys

We might have babied her when she was much younger, but we put a very firm stop on it a couple of years ago when she started using baby voices and trying to act young. We are now consciously not babying her and being as clear and firm as we can be about expectations and consequences at home.

I also do agree with the firmness of coaches being lower than I would have it. I do appreciate they are in a tough spot because some parents couldn’t possibly have their child told off without complaining (whereas others like me would welcome it, so the child actually fully understands the coach isn’t happy). I did mention this to the football coach that she could do with more guidance about what was acceptable and that he could call her out on things but I bet this does put him in an awkward spot because he won’t want to be seen to be treating her differently.

My daughter is year 4 now, and some of the other younger acting girls have really grown up in the last year. I’m really hoping it is her turn next before this becomes a social issue too.

Thank you.

I was pulled aside by the leader, but there has never been any suggestion from them that she shouldn’t go.

I will talk to the leaders to discuss the issues we see, and hopefully work through this.

To be honest, most of the older-acting girls seem to age out of wanting to go to Brownies in the not too distant future because it isn’t cool and I wonder if she will fit in a bit more with the slightly different group of children.

As I’ve said before, my daughter is actually a kind and pleasant child (genuinely, she is the first to share things and I’ve never seen her be the instigator in any playground type issues or talking bad about anyone) but is a handful because she’s not doing what is asked.

Out of the 5 teachers she’s had, 2 absolutely adored her (reception and yr 3, 2 didn’t seem fussed either way yr 1 and yr 4), and 1 seemed to dislike her (yr 2). All have reported the same issues with concentration but have varied massively in how they out it across!

We went privately but the school had to fill out form and like this poster says, lots on their form.came out that they had either disregarded or didn't see as an issue.

You also say she clumsy. Can she do things like buttons, laces and zips? Or have issues with clothes/taste/sound/smell? Because another ND that has processing issues, including verbal, is Dyspraxia which is a specific sub-set of the broader Sensory Procesjng Disorder set.

As she is young you could consider an OT assessment in the first instance who would assess for any sensory processing issues, and dyspraxia. And that could be a useful first step before an adhd diagnosis and more likely to be relatively easily accessible privately.

How is her sleep? If she is going to bed/sleep late (common with ADHD) this will make concentration issues 10x worse.

She was slow to learn zips and buttons (and writing and knife/fork and Lego… list goes on!) but she has got there. She can manage laces just, but working on speed with that. It’s almost as if she’s been a couple of years behind since the start (I hate to blame Covid, but she was an only child at home in lockdowns so didn’t have any children to learn from).

She goes to bed late, but also gets up late so gets the full recommended sleep amount. No issues with her trying to avoid sleep on an evening and she gets up without too much fuss on a morning (and surprising no one, no fuss on a weekend!).

I'm a Brownie leader and 100% endorse this.

Brownies is really good for children with SEN because it's learning new skills and team work in a relaxed environment. At least in our pack, we would never turn a girl away because of ADHD! We'd look at strategies to support her. Giving a responsibility is a good one (go and hand the pens and paper out, go and pin this to the wall) as it gets the focus there and also provides a movement break.

She does sound a bit like my DS who is now 14. He also learnt, but it was hard. He has Sensory Processing Disorder but doesn't meet the threshold for dyspraxia, although has many of the traits. And he has inattentive ADHD. He is also, like your DD, a lovely child who has often been well liked by teachers/ leaders at clubs etc - although it can take a while for him to warm up and vice versa but it's probably been his super power in that there are more teachers who are there actively working to support him because he has charmed them and they can see he's not doing things on purpose.

He also struggled with team sports. Wasn't always co-ordinated, struggled to follow what was necessary for drills, hated the cold/wet/mud for football/rugby, and just generally seemed to be flailing around on the outskirts a lot of the time! . Football was particularly bad for him which I have to say, I think is because there's an awful lot of messing around and lack of structure at a lot of football clubs.

Martial arts were good for him. He took a while to learn to swim, but did briefly join his club's swim team once he cracked it. And he abandoned football and rugby in favor of basketball - indoor, controlled environment - as a team sport. He still finds that some basketball courts are harder for him to concentrate on - to do with sound, feel of the floor, colours etc. Its quite interesting to track and he is learning how to do this for himself too eg if he's playing a match he searches for the court on youtube to get a sense of what it will look and feel like in advance.

Thank you for doing something so lovely as being a leader. It really is appreciated!

I think the difficulty here lies in the we aren’t on any pathway to diagnosis of ADHD or similar so it would feel like a bit of a white lie even saying “suspected” or similar.

As I’ve said earlier, I will definitely now be taking the initiative to speak with the leaders about what my daughter finds hard and ways to help that. It would also be useful to me to know exactly what she is like in their setting too and I’ll be listening carefully to their thoughts (which might be useful as they will tend to be a little bit less tight lipped than teachers!).

I do think some adults seem to think telling her to behave will get her to start listening/stop faffing, but she doesn’t react need to be told explicitly what not to do (I.e. stop playing with the boy tack, look at me when you are listening l) otherwise it just never seems to compute to her that she is doing anything wrong.

What strikes me is that although her attention drifts at school, they do not have a problem with her behaviour. Whether or not there is a diagnosable problem, I see that as a separate issue no from the shenanigans at her clubs.

I have noticed that with sports, dance etc, children want to participate because their friends do. If they are good at the activity they will focus and aim to succeed. If they are not good at the sport they may ask to stop going or...they may piss about and seek attention from their peers by disrupting the class instead, which also prevents other children from achieving. I have previously removed my son from one activity for doing this, and in every activity he still does I see other children up to the same tricks and wish their parents would remove them. So personally I would try different activities until she finds one where she doesn't feel the need to piss about, and I would be clear with her about what I was aiming to achieve.

Definitely don’t pull her out of anything before chatting with the leaders and trying possible strategies, including as you said, offering to stay to help if needed. I would imagine it could impact her self- esteem to be taken out of them, especially if overtime it’s harder for her at school as well.

Brownies/Guides etc… is a great place for kids who have any kind of additional needs. Some leaders will be more understanding than others but I think being upfront about her struggles and trying things shouldn’t be an issue if she’s well meaning and not impulsive doing dangerous things. I’ve had lots of diagnosed and undiagnosed ND brownie and guide members who it’s been so good for being part of a group.

The leaders for any activity will ask her to leave if it’s that bad, I don’t think you need to preempt it out of embarrassment. I bet a lot of their other students are similar, you just notice your own child the most!

Do talk to the school and gp. No harm in keeping an eye on things and going down the diagnosis path if relevant- it will help her understand herself and improve her confidence in the long run.

You will need to seek a private diagnosis. School will be asked for input.

Start keeping a diary of everything you notice. You may want to make a parental request for EHCP at some point. The diary will be useful.

Try to stop worrying about being "that parent."

A good book is Smart But Scattered.

I also think football is bad because the girls that are into it are really into it, which is a contrast from my daughter that just really enjoys it. I suspect the differential is even more pronounced in boys!

They do sound very similar.

My daughter did do karate for several years. Despite being the bane of the teachers life, she got up to quite a high belt because she has a great memory (but definitely questionable skill) but it was another case of the class just becoming way too focussed and she was so far out of her depth because she was younger and more immature that she didn’t want to go anymore. There was definitely murmurings from the parents that saw her antics in class as to why she kept grading so quickly with success and their kids didn’t, but she remembered everything despite putting no effort in in the classes (and their kids didn’t despite them trying much harder in lessons) and the gradings were split into small sections with breaks in between which gave her a chance at focusing for the two minutes to do her thing before having a break.

We’d been considering judo/ju jitsu, but I’m a bit concerned about the safety aspect if she’s not listening so decided to steer clear even though she would love it.

As I’ve said many times, her behaviour isn’t actually naughty it’s that she just isn’t focussing in the same way as others. She doesn’t disrupt others as she doesn’t involve others in her faffing and the extent the others are affected is that she might take a few seconds to copy the drill others are doing. I do think in a classroom environment this is hidden somewhat, as they will have been very clear that you are to remain in your seat so the faffing isn’t so obvious. I don’t think our school really cares unless you are actually disruptive, which she isn’t.

She had no friends going into these clubs, now is friendly with a few at football and Brownies but couldn’t name a single child in her swimming class. These are clubs she picked and still enjoys and her friends doing them are not relevant at all to her.

If I took her out of all the things she enjoys and tries at (even if it’s not to another parents standard) because she struggles with paying attention she would do nothing.

My DD's first head of year and subject teacher said she was daydreaming. Senco laughed when I suggested ADHD later as she wasn't hyperactive and quite the opposite. Diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type at about 24. So missed out on school and university support.

Sounds like my DS at that age.

we now realise he has ADHD.

Disgusting ableism

My DS is/was also a "dreamer" (although not so much for mucking about) & at about that age I realised that he will work really hard & be focused ONLY if he connects to the coach. So in a big group swimming lesson he got nowhere for months (despite being a really good swimmer) until his coach had some one in one time with him (just a coincidence) & after that he would do anything for her so whizzed up the levels. He's the same with everything else if he feels a connection he will "work" for them otherwise he's dreaming about Norse gods or black holes
Just a suggestion of something different to consider, I'm sure your DD will get there (& it's lovely to read the posts from scout/brownie leaders)

@OhBling your DS sounds fantastic mine is not quite so self aware yet but I hope it will come!

Thank you for the reassurance.

She’s definitely not dangerous in the unpredictable sense, the only way she would possibly be dangerous is if there was very specific instructions she had not listened/understood properly and when she’s doing something like that I’d expect all kids to be watched very closely! She’d do exactly what she was told at the time she was told to.

I said before, there’s much more stereotypically “naughty” kids in most of the groups with hitting/bad language/bad attitude and she’s only naughty in the way that she might be distracted away from the intended activity by her own thoughts so not paying attention. She stands out because she doesn’t sit still, but as you say there are other kids misbehaving in different ways!

well, obviously I'm a fan!

It hasn't been easy to get here and we've had some really tough times. And I'm sure we'll have more. But I think seeing him learn to understand his own strengths and weaknesses, and behaviours has been good. And being able to figure out (sometimes) where me stepping in gently (directly or sometimes in a sneaky backdoor way) has also been helpful. So I'm sure you'll get there.

And yes to if the child feels a connection to the teacher/leader/coach and feels recognised. Especially as I think children like this often are NOT seen in the same way because unless they ARE making a fuss, they just look like that kid who isn't paying attention or whatever - eg at primary, DS HATED sitting on the ground (still does - but no one is asking him to anymore) so would often sort of lurk, or pretend to sit, or half kneel and it just made hi mlook like he was messing around when really, he was just desperately trying to not actually SIT). Last year he was feeling quite despondent and anti basketball for various reasons so I had a quiet word with the coach who then had a quiet word with him, and it was transformational for him.

How complicated is this??!

She doesn't want to be there

Unsubscribe her

Your opening post basically describes two of mine.. Who are AuDHD. I would get an assessment, the delays can be long so get her on the list now, if you want to explore that avenue.

To me this might be indicative of ADHD.