Nearly 3 years of daughter not sleeping through

[Peebleneeb]

Hi,

I’m at wits end with no clue how to improve my daughters sleep and desperately need help or advice.

For background my daughter was born in March 22 extremely premature at 24 weeks weighing just 1lb. We spent 4 months in 3 different NICUs across the UK getting her better and nearly lost her twice (as in were told she was dying). I’m telling you this as I’m not sure if this could be part of why she is a bad sleeper- or if it’s why maybe we created sleep crutches and completely avoided (and don’t like the idea of) sleep training of any kind. Because she’s so precious.

So to the sleep issue… My husband and I are absolutely zombies because my daughter is now nearly 3 (in a couple months) and still wakes up at least twice a night screaming for me. She has never been a good sleeper- has had us up anywhere between 1-10 times a night since she was born- now it’s mostly twice a night with a hellish bedtime. She has a nap midday-1.30pm ish sometimes 2pm each day but I’ve been trying to cap it (she is super grumpy when I cap it though so finding it hard). She goes to bed at 7.30pm/8pm and usually wakes for the final time anytime between 6-7am.

She takes anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour to get to bed and insists we stroke her hair or hold her hand. She has white noise machine (has always had this), a very dim night light on, is still in a cot bed with rails up as doesn’t and can’t climb out yet, has a duvet and pillow now but in the past has had sleep sacks. We have the exact same bed time routine and have for as long as I can remember- it’s milk, brush teeth, put pull ups on (she is potty trained during day now), read 1/2 books, put in bed and then I lie next to her until she’s asleep. I didn’t always lie next to her - when she was younger I could put her down stroke her head a bit and then walk out after 5 mins but she started screaming when I left so the only fix was to lie with her. It worked for awhile but now she wants us to stroke her hair too and screams and screams like she’s being murdered if we don’t, or if we leave. I am losing my fucking mind!!!

We are so kind and gentle with her but I hold firm boundaries in day to day life so I’m not a pushover- except for when she screams like that at bedtime and at night as I can’t bear it. I do most bedtimes and wake ups but daddy does a few as I work early shifts half the week (4am alarm). We have tried: turning off white noise, turning off night light, turning on brighter lamp, singing, reading to her while in bed, just walking out (lolllll nope), let her cry max 5 mins then go in (can’t cope any longer as she REALLY screams), just talking to her and asking her to go back to sleep if she wakes in the night, asking her if anything is frightening her and why she wakes up (she doesn’t know).

Is this unusual? What can I do? I can’t do this any more I’m going insane!

Thank you in advance ❤️

My daughter is Feb 21 and she still wakes once a night, things have changed over time but we are now bed hopping. My partner gets in her bed (it's a double) and she gets in with me and goes back to sleep.

She would rather just sleep with me all the time but we have agreed she starts the night off in her bed and if she wakes she's welcome to come in to bed with me. I've recently started saying to her "you are safe and you are cosy in your bed" and I actually think this has helped as she's had quite a few nights where she's slept through until 6... although she is also doing longer days at preschool now so it could be that too, who knows.

It's is normal, sleep is hard. We wanted to wait until she was reliably sleeping through but gave up and I'm now due my second in a couple of weeks 😂 all good fun

Everyone will do what works best for their family but I've always been in the "support and put up with it until it gets better on its own" camp, I find the clingier she is the more I lean into it, the easier it all is.

It's so funny because she is so outgoing and so confident, she's definitely a leader, I actually think lots of people IRL would be surprised that she still wakes for me at almost 4 but that's just kids and sleep. If you follow Lyndsey you'll know that 😊

DD didn't sleep for more than 3 hours max, usually 2, until she was 3 and a half.

We did CIO in the end. It took 17 days, bit she started

To all those who say to just be firm and teach them it’s bedtime, honestly it doesn’t work. I have one child who sleeps 12hrs a night and has done since 6 months. Same routine and rules and wind down for bed with youngest and she didn’t get it until almost 5. She’s now very reliable sleeper but it took a long long time.

I was at my wits end during those years before school. We tried reward charts, bribery, a version of CIO, put back and walk away, put back and sit, co sleeping, you name it we tried it. She just woke every 4hrs or so.

Maybe it’s school, maybe it’s hormones, maybe she’s “learnt” but it’s finally ok

Not all children (or people!) learn things at the same rate so let’s not patronise those who have children still learning at a different pace.

My advice is do whatever you need to get through it. For several months DH slept in the spare room so we all got some sleep (DD came in with me)

@workingmumguilt well said!

My 3yo son still wakes in the night. Bedtime is a nightmare and he refuses to sleep, often only drops off around 9.30-10. It's torture. But we have an older child so we know it will pass.

Solidarity from a fellow zombie 💐

My son is 3.5. He is exactly the same. You aren’t doing anything wrong. He goes to sleep around 7:30-8pm. He usually takes 20-45mins. He wakes anywhere between 10pm and 2am usually crying or calling out. Either he comes into our room or me or my husband collect him. He snuggles in bed with us then usually sleeps fine until morning. I don’t even try and resettle him in his own bed. I just want my sleep so happy for him to get in with us.

My older son who is 7 was the same until he was about 4 then suddenly stopped waking and slept through pretty consistently (unless poorly etc) We didn’t change a thing, he just started sleeping through.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if the discussion has moved on.

My 5 year old still needs us to sit with her while she goes to sleep (not a problem) and calls for us every night. She went straight into a small double at 2 yo so that we could get in with her. We take it in turns to get in and spend the rest of the night with her.

Talking to colleagues, this is very much within the norm. In fact, I don't know anyone with small children who don't have them coming into their bed or getting in with them. I'd say that still napping at 3 could be a problem though. We had to cut naps altogether at 2.5 because it was affecting night sleep too much.

Mine is almost 4.5 and still doesn’t sleep through the night. We’re down to one wake up now though, mostly.

Like you, we do have to go into her. Things go fucking nuclear if we don’t and I don’t care what the sleep training approaches say, our way gets her back to sleep within a relatively short space of time (most of the time anyway) and anything else leads to nobody sleeping for hours if at all, and the same again the next night and the one after etc etc.

We’re not at the properly sleeping through bit yet; and we have some spells that are worse than others, but things have definitely improved since a year ago and I have faith that we will get there eventually.

Things that have helped a bit - moving to a proper single bed and out of the toddler bed (only recent, she was massively resistant to this and I also felt like we needed to keep the single bed in her room for those times we gave up and one of us just slept in there with her). Now I wish we’d done that sooner.

Also a weighted blanket - not quite a game changer but seems to have helped slightly.

Mostly just wanted to send solidarity!

I haven't read the full thread but I have heard the sleep fairy book is very good for this age? Worth a try!

Honestly it's normal for some children but that doesn't make it any easier. We have been through all the options (from pacing around the room until 3am, to constantly putting him in bed) and honestly it's hard to have any advice other than parent the child you have and don't read too much advice as most of it won't work.
We got our son into his own room eventually, complete with "say night and walk out" but it was a lot of crying and gradual popping in and out. We needed to prioritise our own needs a bit.cosleeping was a complete no go. At around 3 years old he was sleeping through all but one night every couple of weeks.
But going to preschool set all that back and he was waking a few nights every couple of weeks.
Eventually when his brother was old enough we all moved to the one bedroom we can fit 3 separate beds in, and although we all disturb each other from time to time, there's little stress as everyone seems to feel safe enough.
Good luck, it can feel like you are doing something wrong, but I think it's 90% your child how they are, and maybe 10% your influence if you're lucky!

Haven't read anything but your OP, but the truth is...

What you're describing is completely within the realms of biological normality, whether or not Western society deems it "normal" or "reasonable". She's needing time to power down before bed and wants reassurance/comfort in the way of stroking her hair or holding her hand. Again, whether or not people like it, she's not even three years old; the world is big, scary at times, her perception is constantly changing - she is still very very little in the grand scheme and does absolutely not yet need to be independent if it isn't coming naturally.

As for waking in the night, again still normal although there can be red flags indicating underlying health issues that impact sleep. However, twice a night doesn't sound excessive.

Responsive parenting is the road less travelled because it is made inconvenient and pretty damn difficult in a world where you're forced (unnaturally) to go back to work and take on more responsibilities than you reasonably cope with. But instead of this being painted as the problem, normal childhood behaviour is demonised as being the issue.

You're doing amazingly 💐

Whether you go back to work or not, hardly getting any sleep and feeling like a zombie isn’t sustainable, as the OP’s post proves.

Talking to colleagues, this is very much within the norm. In fact, I don't know anyone with small children who don't have them coming into their bed or getting in with them.

This never used to be the norm. But I’ve noticed it is now, mainly (I believe) due to parents not encouraging and facilitating independent sleep between the age of 0-6 months. Babies are allowed to wake in the night and come into bed with the parents, so no wonder they continue to do this whenever they enter a lighter sleep cycle in the night until 3 or 4 years old.

People will come along and say ‘we’re supposed to co-sleep’ etc etc, and if that truly works for you then great, but the reality is there are dozens and dozens of threads where parents of older toddlers are at their wits’ end (common phrase) due to sleep deprivation.

If parents were taught how to follow a simple routine from the early weeks and maintain that consistently (as they used to), and not run to the baby with every snuffle, I truly believe we wouldn’t have a generation of sleep-deprived parents (and children).

I didn't say it was sustainable, in fact I said the complete opposite in that we live in a society that is, for the most part, incompatible with raising children via what would be the instinctively natural route.

People very often don't have adequate support networks (family/friends/community) to lighten the load and provide mothers with time to rest and recover. We get up in the night with our children, get up in the morning with them, spend the day either being the caregiver, going to work or getting the everyday chores done, only to probably find ourselves going to bed later because we're trying to catch a bit of time to ourselves.

It doesn't matter whether you're going to work or not, if you have enough responsibilities that prevent you from taking some time to relax/sleep, it's going to be difficult at best and completely inoperable at worst.

Yes totally normally and yes you will feel like it's breaking you. It doesn't last forever but it is very very very hard work.

@Wantitalltogoaway but back in the day leaving kids to cry was the norm. No-one is saying sleep deprivation is great but I know it's the lesser evil over not being there for little children. I'd rather adults 'took the hit' if you see what I mean instead of little children.

Hi. I’ve read your messages and appreciate you taking the time to respond. However your advice isn’t actually new to me as I have tried exactly what you’ve described (I thought I did say this in my original post).

While the stroking hair debacle may make me sound like a pushover, I am not, because we do hold firm boundaries in our home… she is just 2 and a half and will try her luck. But if I leave before she’s fallen asleep, as a previous poster also said, she will kick off all night long on and off and that would continue for days. I know because been there, done that. Had to change tact because I was falling asleep at the wheel trying advice like you are suggesting. So I don’t think the solution here is “put boundaries in place” or “be firm” or “talk to her”. Tried it… Didn’t work (sadly)!

You may not realise it but you got the golden unicorn child. It’s not your fantastic parenting- just luck in my opinion. While I genuinely read your advice as well meaning, it can read as though you think you are above other mums, and you are talking down to us mums with kids that don’t sleep, hence why you got some backlash.

Anyway, thank you, but also I’m a blooming good mum who holds boundaries and does all of the things you suggest, and my child still does not sleep through. All kids are different- just gutted mine won’t just fall asleep at the click of my fingers 🤣 (I should probably add my girl is an incredible kind, polite, caring, calm and wonderful kid during the day though)!

I would just like to politely point you to my response to @Yourethebeerthief as a reply to this. In short… Been there, done that, didn’t work. Sucks for me and thanks for the advice but it definitely does read like you think you are a better parent- hence why you also had a bit of backlash.

Again I'd say what you're describing is even more normal for premmies who were unnaturally separated from mums so more likely to feel fear going to sleep and / or waking alone. But dropping the nap doesn't necessarily help for all children this age. Mine would have fitful sleep all night with just as frequent wake ups on the days when he didn't nap at 3-4. Slept far better (next to me) with a 1 hour power nap. My friend's almost 5 year old only sleeps through if he naps. So again, it isn't necessarily within OPs gift to change anything except how she copes.

You may not realise it but you got the golden unicorn child. It’s not your fantastic parenting- just luck in my opinion. While I genuinely read your advice as well meaning, it can read as though you think you are above other mums, and you are talking down to us mums with kids that don’t sleep, hence why you got some backlash.

My child is a difficult little so-and-so as they all are. No one is getting an easy ride as a parent.

You may well read mine and others' posts as talking down to you but, as I've said to another poster, I think this is projection. We are only offering advice. I think it is patronising to suggest my child does certain things purely out of luck and not because I have parented well. Or perhaps that's me projecting now. But one of us has a child who sleeps well and the other doesn't, and you've come looking for advice. He didn't always sleep well.

I would say that posters who are offering advice for what worked for their children, actually might have some things to say that are worth listening to. Some people only want solidarity in the trenches, and that's fine. Others appreciate varying advice on a way out of the trenches.

My child is not a lucky roll of the dice.

Your OP says that you are a zombie and "I can’t do this any more I’m going insane!"

Do you want to hear advice that worked for others?

Well my advice to you is start getting firmer and put her back to bed a hundred times if that's what it takes. Or, co-sleep. Pick a method and stick with it. Sometimes people say they've "tried everything" but they've tried so many things they don't stick at any one long enough.

I think it does matter what your priorities are and maybe it takes breaking point to change them. But I gave everything at night once too, until I was a danger behind the wheel, literally falling asleep. Then I decided that nothing matters if I end up crashing the car with my son in the back seat. That gave perspective on some night time toddler drama. If you don't accept it in the day, don't accept it at night. Wait out the screaming with kindness and empathy. But don't accept it. Put her back to bed. She will be fine.

Sometimes people say they've "tried everything" but they've tried so many things they don't stick at any one long enough.

I've been trying to get I've child to sleep through for 7 years, the other for 5 years. Believe me, we've not had time to try everything, but to try everything for a decent length of time.

I thought I was a great mum and had sorted the sleeping thing when my first was doing 11-7 reliably by 6 weeks. I'd cracked it, we had an amazing routine going and I couldn't understand why other parents allowed themselves to be so tired for so long.

Karma is a bitch sometimes 😂

Never assume that your child sleeps well/eats well etc because of amazing parenting. It might help, but if you roll a six in that dice you could be the best parent in the world and you'll still be stuck as a zombie.

I have to agree that a lot of what you think of as your good parenting is good fortune. I kind of wish people who think it's their good parenting have more children and am secretly smug when they realise they can't actually take credit for what has "worked" because it didn't with any subsequent children. They are all different.

Sorry OP, but when you write things like this:

"she is just 2 and a half and will try her luck. But if I leave before she’s fallen asleep, as a previous poster also said, she will kick off all night long on and off and that would continue for days"

It just reinforces the fact that your child is in charge, and is demanding a level of attention at bedtime that you yourself have admitted you can't sustain. She is, as you yourself say, trying her luck and she kicks off because she knows you will give in. She is not a baby here, but is engaging in a very successful game of control.

Some of us have tried to offer help (as opposed to just give 'solidarity'), and despite being polite and respectful, have got predictably shot down and dismissed as apparently knowing nothing but simply being lucky. Parents on these types of threads always get weirdly defensive as if they need their approach and lack of sleep validated. I don't get it, because you actually asked for advice. But if you are happy to keep giving your DD exactly what she wants at bedtime, then that's absolutely fine, but you then have to accept that nothing will change. The alternative, enforcing rules even if it takes days/weeks and a lot of tears (because she won't like you taking back that control you've given her), is a valid alternative. People like to assume things about my parenting and my kids, so I'm sure I'll get more of the usual "you don't understand if you don't have a child like mine" attitude, but I know both my kids were in their beds at 7pm last night and I know how I taught them to do that (yes, spoiler alert, they didn't just magically do it, unicorn style!).

@Babyboomtastic

I thought I was a great mum and had sorted the sleeping thing when my first was doing 11-7 reliably by 6 weeks. I'd cracked it, we had an amazing routine going and I couldn't understand why other parents allowed themselves to be so tired for so long.

Well mine certainly wasn't sleeping through by 6 weeks. I went from having a poor sleeper, implemented strategies and stuck to them hard through the tough times, and now have a good sleeper.

I don't understand the dismissal of a parent who has been through the challenge of dreadful sleep or the desire to label it as mere luck. If so what's the point in any of these threads asking for advice? What's the point in parenting books? Why has the OP sought advice when she apparently can't cope anymore, only to dismiss it as nothing but luck and that it won't work?

OP could try not giving in to the nighttime tantrums, or she can continue to say that nothing will possibly ever work. If so, I don't see the point in the cry for help in the OP.

FGS will you two just leave her alone